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1960 Norton Navigator Rebuild

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1960 Norton Navigator Rebuild

Posted by Ulrich Hoffmann at August 07. 2016

As mentioned in the other thread " Planning to buy a Navigator"the planning phase is now over and the bike is in my workshop.

According to the papers the bike was put off the road in 2004.

Initally the barrels and heads were missing but I bought some barrels in the UK and also some NOS heads are on the way from London.

The previous owner made a new wiring harness but with only two colours: red and blue- the first thing to throw out. He also changed the electric system to 12 volts and installed a Boyer ingnition. There is a Wipac rotor in the parts pile and a Lucas stator from a Commando, which does not quite fit onto the studs in the primary case. I also have a 6 Volt stator. Will have to find out how this goes together.

I already repositioned the rear fender which was mounted in a rather odd angle.

The gearbox mainshaft has a lot of play on the drive sprocket side, I guess the bearing is toast. What size do I need? It is the early type gearbox.

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Re: 1960 Norton Navigator Rebuild

Posted by Ulrich Hoffmann at August 07. 2016

The seatpan  looks not like an original one.

There is an additional hole in the headlamp shell where an ignition lock was located. Did the Navigator have a lock at all?

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Re: 1960 Norton Navigator Rebuild

Posted by Dan Field at August 07. 2016

Not sure about the headlight but I bought a remanufactured seat from Bantam John, it was about £100 I think, not perfect, I think it sits a bit high but seems to be well made, I think Leightons do them too.

dan

Re: 1960 Norton Navigator Rebuild

Posted by Ulrich Hoffmann at August 08. 2016

Thanks Dan for the hint with the seats.

This morning I opened up the gearbox housing to take a peek.

I found a broken kickstart return sping ( available) and a bent clutch lever spring (no 41325), not available.

Anybody can help me with this spring?

Re: 1960 Norton Navigator Rebuild

Posted by Alan Osborn at August 12. 2016
On the electrical front we have some answers. Yes to 12V and Boyer ignition but wiring needs to be in correct colours! Well at least the industries standardised colours from the mid 1960s. I do have on my web site some details for such a rewire, www.aoservices.co.uk If you click on the top right hand side orange Icon you will go to some pdf one of which covers the lightweights. The Navigator had two Wipac switches left and right of the speedo, The switches were identical even if the knobs were not. ie the ignition had a key initially but it appeared naf so was soon replaced with another light switch knob. There was also a steering lock on the top of the forks a la Atlas. Al O

Re: 1960 Norton Navigator Rebuild

Posted by Ulrich Hoffmann at August 14. 2016

Thanks Alan, I will refer to your site when rewiring the Navigator.

I just got my NOS cylinder heads.. They are bare without any bushes or whatsoever.

I can take the whole things out of my Jubilee heads if still good.

Only the bushes for the spindle clamping pins won´t come out the Jubilee heads . I tried heat an tapping but no result. They aren´t even listed in the spares list.

Guess I will have made some new ones or anyone has another solution?

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Re: 1960 Norton Navigator Rebuild

Posted by Fritz Wettstein at August 14. 2016

Previously Ulrich Hoffmann wrote:

…the spindle clamping pins…


What's that? Sorry I couldn't translate it into something meaningfull in German Embarassed

Fritz

Re: 1960 Norton Navigator Rebuild

Posted by Ulrich Hoffmann at August 14. 2016

Sali Fritz!

Es ist die Schraube, die die Kipphebelwelle gegen verdrehen sichert.

Some British technical solutions are hard to translate in German,

we would have constructed things different...

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Re: 1960 Norton Navigator Rebuild

Posted by Dan Field at August 14. 2016

Ah  a bush for the tappet adjusters?! I have never looked at mine but would have thought they'd come out with heat.

Re: 1960 Norton Navigator Rebuild

Posted by patrick_mullen at August 14. 2016

Hello Ulrich,

To the best of my knowledge there are no bushes fitted in the cylinder head.  It is more likely that your Jubilee heads are early heads (1959 - 1963) and your new Navigator heads are later heads (1963 - on).  I am fairly certain that the later head uses a larger diameter spindle clamping pin.  I think the change occurred with the introduction of the Electra in 1963.  So what you need are the later spindle clamping pins but I don't know if these are available so making some bushes might be the best solution.

Patrick

Re: 1960 Norton Navigator Rebuild

Posted by Ulrich Hoffmann at August 14. 2016

The problem is the shoulder on which to tap on with a drift

is almost not there, it is very thin, let´s say half a millimeter.

On the last pics you see the backside with larger diameter to act as a "washer" for the securing nut.

I will look for a suitable piece of tube and a small washer for the backside.

Re: 1960 Norton Navigator Rebuild

Posted by Ulrich Hoffmann at August 14. 2016

Previously patrick_mullen wrote:

Hello Ulrich,

To the best of my knowledge there are no bushes fitted in the cylinder head.  It is more likely that your Jubilee heads are early heads (1959 - 1963) and your new Navigator heads are later heads (1963 - on).  I am fairly certain that the later head uses a larger diameter spindle clamping pin.  I think the change occurred with the introduction of the Electra in 1963.  So what you need are the later spindle clamping pins but I don't know if these are available so making some bushes might be the best solution.

Patrick

Hello Patrick!

Both pair of heads are the early spigot type heads because I also have the matching barrels to it.

 

 

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Re: 1960 Norton Navigator Rebuild

Posted by patrick_mullen at August 14. 2016

Hi Ulrich,

That's good news that your new heads and barrels are matching spigot types.  It is highly likely that the change in diameter of the spindle clamping pins occurred earlier than the change to the non-spigot heads/barrels.  I have had a look at a 1959/60 Jubilee head on my bench and I do not see any bush.  I have the Norton Spare Parts Lists for 1959 and 1961/62 and no bush is shown there - but both lists give the same part number for the 'spindle clamping pin'. I haven't got any later lists to check the part number for the later pin.

I have 2 Jubilees -1959 De Luxe  and 1961 Standard- and 2 Navigators - a De Luxe and a Standard -both 1961.  It is amazing how they differ in minor details.  You asked about the steering lock; early Navigators and Jubilees didn't have steering locks but later models (about 1964 ?) did have.

Anyway the best of luck with your rebuild.

Patrick 

Re: 1960 Norton Navigator Rebuild

Posted by Ulrich Hoffmann at August 15. 2016

You´re right Patrick, there are no bushes in these  holes.

There was only a shiny area where the nut of the clamping bolt

polished the side of the cast part which I took for a pressed in bush.

There are two part numbers for the spindle clamping bolt:

#20849 in the early list

and #24187 in the later 64 list.

So I guess the diameter was changed from 4,63mm to 6,33 mm.

Solution A: Use the original screws with a selfmade bushes and a larger washer for the nuts

Solution B : get bigger  hexagon screws and file flat the head on one side towards the bolt to match the original one.

 

Re: 1960 Norton Navigator Rebuild

Posted by Dan Field at August 15. 2016

I've just checked my stash of Jubilee cylinder heads, I have heads with both sizes of clamping bolt, but looking at my bottom 2 pictures I wonder if Ulrich is talking about the rocker spindle bush?

 

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Re: 1960 Norton Navigator Rebuild

Posted by patrick_mullen at August 15. 2016

Hi Dan,

Yes I would agree with your bottom two photos as well.  Ulrich quoted the part number as 20849 for the early 'spindle clamping pin'which agrees to the 1959/1961 Spare Parts Lists.  This phrase "spindle clamping pin" is how Norton phrased it in the original Spare Parts List.  It is simply the clamping bolt.

Apparently there was a reason why Norton uprated the clamping bolt to the quarter inch size ; if the Jubilee engine was regularly taken up to valve bounce- around 9000 rpm- the original bolt could slacken off and the push rod could jump off the ball of the rocker.  I presume that Norton had quite a few warranty claims for damaged engines.  It has happened to me but strangely enough nothing in the engine actually broke !.  I could ride the bike home on the one working cylinder and simply readjusted the tappets, relocked the clamping bolt and all was well.

 

Patrick

 

Re: 1960 Norton Navigator Rebuild

Posted by Ulrich Hoffmann at August 16. 2016

It is actually the clamping bolt I am talking about.

The rocker spindle bush fits into the new head. No problem.

I will get some 1/4 inch bolts and have them milled to make them suitable as clamping bolts.

Or if someone has a surplus set of original 1/4 inch clamping bolts

for me, it would make me happy.

Re: 1960 Norton Navigator Rebuild

Posted by Dan Field at August 16. 2016

Ulrich, I'll have a look in my box of bits!

Re: 1960 Norton Navigator Rebuild

Posted by Ulrich Hoffmann at August 16. 2016

Another funny thing is the homemade sump plug out of a chunk of aluminimum. No filter gauze.

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Re: 1960 Norton Navigator Rebuild

Posted by Dan Field at August 16. 2016

That's pretty common, mine is a flat aluminium plate too but with no sump plug, they were replaced because they distort easily. The club sells the gauze filter it's attached to flat piece of lead that acts as the gasket to the plate.

Ive fitted an external oil filter anyway, I attached it to the rear of the central channel at the bottom, but I'm using an aluminium mudguard which means I can make room. I,m not sure how far an original mudguard extends below the swing arm?

Dan

Re: 1960 Norton Navigator Rebuild

Posted by Ulrich Hoffmann at August 27. 2016

This is what it should look like:

http://www.ebay.de/itm/252441470481?_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT

See attachments how it really looks like...Frown

A reply in the german cbbc  forum:

The bad fit of indian made spareparts for english motorcycles is a late revenge for  the cruelties made to the indian people during colonisation..

Boy, they must have suffered severly...

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Re: 1960 Norton Navigator Rebuild

Posted by Fritz Wettstein at August 27. 2016

deleted by

Fritz

Re: 1960 Norton Navigator Rebuild

Posted by Ulrich Hoffmann at September 01. 2016

Is this the original sidestand for a Navigator ?

The lenght can be adjusted  and it hits the extracted mainstand.

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Re: 1960 Norton Navigator Rebuild

Posted by Dan Field at September 01. 2016

Ulrich,

I don't think that is original, there is a pic of the club one in the spares section

 

dan

Re: 1960 Norton Navigator Rebuild

Posted by patrick_mullen at September 01. 2016

Hi Ulrich,

I agree that this is not original.  The original prop stand was an optional extra and as far as I know was BOLTED to the bottom stud where the front down tube meets the bottom frame rails. The mounting bracket for yours appears to be welded on to the bottom frame rail.  If you look at the Norton Spare Parts List you can see why someone welded on the bracket where they did.

I don't think I have ever seen a Jubilee or Navigator with the original stand. Only one of mine has a side stand and that's not an original.

Patrick

 

Re: 1960 Norton Navigator Rebuild

Posted by Ulrich Hoffmann at September 11. 2016

What is the right blue for a 1960 Navigator?

Polychromatic blue or

Atlantic blue?

Actual paintcodes anyone?

Are both blue colours metallic ?

I found out my bike originally had a dove gray frame and blue colour on the front forks.

So I guess the tank and side panels were also painted blue.

Was there also a black/dove gray paint scheme for 1960?

Re: 1960 Norton Navigator Rebuild

Posted by patrick_mullen at September 11. 2016

Hi Ulrich,

To the best of my knowledge the Navigator originally came out late in 1960 and was described as being a 1961 model and there were no such thing as paint codes then.

Black and dove grey was certainly a Navigator De Luxe colour for 1961 as I have a 1961 De Luxe,  My Standard Navigator is painted polychromatic red with a black frame - I know this is actually a later colour (about 1963/64) so I expect polychromatic blue was also from this later year. The polychromatic red is a metallic colour and Rover Nightfire Red is a pretty close match or so I have been told.

Maybe someone else can give you a better answer.

Patrick.

Re: 1960 Norton Navigator Rebuild

Posted by Ulrich Hoffmann at October 05. 2016

The frame parts are back from powdercoating .

Now in dove gray aka RAL 1013 pearl white.

Engine is back in the frame.

Unfortunatly one barrel has a crack which I found out after sandblasting. I can use a sleeve from the NOC shop but the engine specialist wants 200.- Euros for the work to fit it into the cylinder.

And I still have no pistons for it.

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Re: 1960 Norton Navigator Rebuild

Posted by Andrew Wibmer at October 05. 2016

Previously Ulrich Hoffmann wrote:

The frame parts are back from powdercoating .

Now in dove gray aka RAL 1013 pearl white.

Engine is back in the frame.

Unfortunatly one barrel has a crack which I found out after sandblasting. I can use a sleeve from the NOC shop but the engine specialist wants 200.- Euros for the work to fit it into the cylinder.

And I still have no pistons for it.

Hi, there is a pair of +10 pistons on the Web site NOC Shop, or I think if you offer Dan a bun he might have a pair for sale. My advice would be if you see it and it looks part right -buy it. Navigator parts are almost as rare as hens teeth. You will find people say "hard to find", that is an understatement... I was lucky and my engine builder happened to have a pair of +30s. If it were not for him I would have bought the liners and +10s. currently Navigator pistons over +10 are pushing £140 or so each - eek.

Re: 1960 Norton Navigator Rebuild

Posted by patrick_mullen at October 05. 2016

Hi Ulrich,

That looks a superb job painting the frame -there are so many separate little bits.  Why did you take the centre stand apart ?

Patrick

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