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Atlas White Smoke

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Atlas White Smoke

Posted by andrew_windsor at June 18. 2017

Hi ,

I started a thread with a heavy clutch to start with , and now progressd to white smoke pouring out the exhausts. The engine was rebuilt about 4 years ago before i purchased the bike and clocked up 134 miles. I purchased the bike 2 years ago and only yesterday fired it up and went round the block and clocked up 2 miles. I had started a thread with a heavy clutch so i made the adjustments and fired it up again. For a start i had a small amount of smoke out the left pipe then the right pipe started, while blipping the throttle created very large indian smoke rings . I have checked both sparks plugs and they are saturated in wet oil. Do you think it will be the valve guide seals or the rings .

Thanks in advance

Andrew

Re: Atlas White Smoke

Posted by andrew_windsor at June 18. 2017

Just a quick update ,

I have got the downpipes off, removed the carbs and on inspection in the ports the exhaust valve stems are oily and sticky, and the valve stems in the inlet ports are clean. I have got most the bolts out the cylinder head except the three at the front top the sunken ones. Could anyone advise on the correct socket sizes and length .   Thanks

Andrew

Re: Atlas White Smoke

Posted by richard_payne at June 18. 2017

Have you drained the sump to make sure that it is not oil build-up there which is causing the problem ? ...and it couldn't have been mis-fuelled with diesel could it ? That causes lots of white smoke. I discovered that the hard way !

Re: Atlas White Smoke

Posted by Neil Wyatt at June 18. 2017

Socket 1/4 Whitworth.  RGM sell a box spanner for that task.

Re: Atlas White Smoke

Posted by andrew_windsor at June 18. 2017

Thank you Richard and Niel for the advice, I managed to get the front bolts out the head with a small 1/4 inch  socket set a bit brutal , i will order a box spanner. I did get the head lifted up enough to have a look inside , both piston crowns are sooted up and looks like alot of oil has been thrown about, is there a knack to removing the cylinder head without raving the whole engine out , i have tried various positions apart from standing on my head.

Thanks

Andrew

Re: Atlas White Smoke

Posted by john_holmes at June 18. 2017

look at this

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UcGsy4u58l8

 

If the bike had wet sumped and you started it without draining the sump then put the bike back together, drain the sump and try again before removing the head..

Re: Atlas White Smoke

Posted by Gordon Johnston at June 18. 2017

Could this simply have been wet sumping? If the bike had been standing a good long time it would chuck out white smoke and even smoke rings for a minute or two. Run it for 5 minutes and if it stops smoking it would indeed be wet sumping. In that case the simple solution would be to drain the sump before starting (but make sure there is oil in the tank first) and starting should be a smoke-free procedure.

Personally, I don't bother draining the sump on my Dominator if it has been left for a while. I just make sure the shed door is open to disperse the cloud when I start it.

Re: Atlas White Smoke

Posted by andrew_windsor at June 18. 2017

Hi ,

Before starting i drained the oil out of the sump and popped it back in the tank . On the first engine start there was a little bit of smoke out of one of the silencers which is understandble. I went for a short run not going above 40mph as the clutch was giving me some stick. I made a few clutch adjustments and on the second start up the smoking got so bad the engine started to rumble and i switched off quick. I knew it wasnt the big ends because i have heard this noise on a diesel roller when it was running on neat oil. Not convinced i started it the third time and white smoke pouring out and the engine sounded ok but i let it stop accidentally. So i went for the fourth go and it gave me such a kick back i thought right lets have a look and see whats going on in there.

The engine was rebuilt by JMC with 136 miles on the clock and following there work on a strip down i have my reservations.

Will keep posting and stick with me as i will need a lot of help.

Andrew

Re: Atlas White Smoke

Posted by john_holmes at June 18. 2017

Maybe too late now but next time do not stick to 40mph, give it some revs under load to get the rings to seat.

Re: Atlas White Smoke

Posted by john_holmes at June 18. 2017

Maybe too late now but next time do not stick to 40mph, give it some revs under load to get the rings to seat.

Re: Atlas White Smoke

Posted by David Cooper at June 18. 2017

I wonder if the pressure release ball valve in the timing case has stuck? It happened to me years ago. I can't remember exact symptoms but I do remember lots of smoke from oil in the wrong places.

Re: Atlas White Smoke

Posted by andrew_windsor at June 19. 2017

Hi ,

Thanks David and John for your advice, i do usually nip on a bit unfortunately not on this occasion.

I will carry on  get the engine out and go through it , hopefully nothing too serious.

Will keep you posted.

Andrew

Re: Atlas White Smoke

Posted by Jonathan Soons at June 19. 2017

Previously john_holmes wrote:

look at this

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UcGsy4u58l8

 

That is a little unfair, John. The bike in the video is not even a proper Atlas. It is an N15 mounted high up in a featherbed so that the head can't come off.

Re: Atlas White Smoke

Posted by andrew_windsor at June 20. 2017

Hi All,

An update on progress, i have managed to get the head off by taking the gearbox out sliding the engine backwards and getting it to tilt forwards with just enough room to wiggle it out. One thing i did notice a lot of the nuts and bolt were pretty easy to get off in my opinion not properly torqued down . The head gasket is saturated in oil and right across the barrels. Next job will be to clean everything up . Will try and post some pictures  .

Andrew

Re: Atlas White Smoke

Posted by andrew_windsor at June 20. 2017

Hi ,

Just tried to send 1 photo, attachment to large , puzzled !!!

Re: Atlas White Smoke

Posted by andrew_windsor at June 20. 2017

Have looked down the bores and they look preety clean and unscored, the pistons have stamped on the crowns 73/5 can anyone enlighten me, are they standard or have we had a rebore.

Andrew

Re: Atlas White Smoke

Posted by Alan Osborn at June 21. 2017

Head removal-Atlas no issue. remove all bolts/nuts and of course the head steady. Get astride the bike, raise the head with your hands either side (where the plugs would be) than use your fingers between the head and the barrels to raise/jiggle the push rods up inside the head, tip the head back and out.

No problem.

Looking forward to the next installment.

Re: Atlas White Smoke

Posted by andrew_windsor at June 21. 2017

Well i have checked everything over and cleaned the oil off the head and piston crowns  all looks sound.

To be honest i am going to rebuild it back up and take a chance, i have got the head back on already.

Just hope when i fire it up i havent got Puffing Billy with me!!!Embarassed

 

 

Re: Atlas White Smoke

Posted by robert_tuck at June 21. 2017

It is possible that oil was put in to protect,  if not then you will be back where you started.  I would have heated the head up and tapped the valve guides out enough to put some sealer round them,also checked that the rocker spindles were the right type and turned the correct way round.  Piston oil ring type is also important with later oil bleed rods. oil drain hole clear in head and all the way down?.pressure release valve stuck?.oil returning to tank?.Oil residue from previous attempt to start with full sump?

Re: Atlas White Smoke

Posted by andrew_windsor at June 22. 2017

Thank you  Robert for your advice, i will get the engine running by just putting the basics back together and see how we go. If the problem persists within the hour i can get it back on the bench again and go through it in more detail .

Andrew

Re: Atlas White Smoke

Posted by andrew_windsor at June 24. 2017

Just  a quick update , i tried to get the head torqued down but one of the nuts or studs was about to slip so the engine is out and on the workbench .

Bit of a u turn,  probably not a bad thing  as things are not fitting together like a swiss watch and it needs to be if its going to be ridden.

Andrew

Re: Atlas White Smoke

Posted by andrew_windsor at Wednesday 06:51

Hi,

Just a quick update.

I have got the bike rebuilt just got to fit the tank and seat and run her up and see what happens.

Will keep you posted .

Andrew

Re: Atlas White Smoke

Posted by robert_tuck at Wednesday 07:08

Compression rings can be put in upside down and be a problem, New bores need bedding in , oil bleed rods need their own type of piston rings ,head not tightenned down evenly, oil getting accross joint, plenty of things to check,don't be in a rush to reassemble till you have checked around, Easiest thing to take down and rebuild and be back to square 1.  Been there ,done that, most frustrating.

Re: Atlas White Smoke

Posted by anna jeannette Dixon at Wednesday 18:41

Hello  Now what year is your Atlas    I  ask this  because there are two types of oil pumps fitted to  The Norton Atlas    Early machinery  had the 3 Start oil pump and after 1965 every thing went on to 6 start  oil pumps  and higher oil presser  so to balance this out  they fitted pain rocker shafts and bleed hole in the  con rods and shell bearing, where as the early models had  NO oil holes in the shell bearings for the con rods   so my prognosis is you have oil consumption  and since the rebuild  JMC will not know this information and fitted the  later type shell bearing so your bottom end is not getting the right oil presser and the oil pump is over oiling the large ends  which is the cause of oil getting up the bore and the oil ring not being able to cope with the large amount of oil   and your engine runs rough oiling the spark plugs  and you have oil coming in from the push rod tunnels to  has the cylinder head was not torqued  up right   you do this in stages  starting with the center nut by nipping it up first and then the 4 side bolts  the rear one  the two under the front the last two up front of the head  then go around again, Now I just stripped a Norton Atlas Bottom half  it is 1963 engine bottom half   and been rebuilt by some IDIOT  who as used blue silicon on the crankcase halves and in doing so he has blocked up the savage side hole in the cases and fitted the wrong shell bearing and to top this off has fitted two odd con rods into the bargain no woulder there were signs of  picking up on the shells  so the crank needs a regrind now,  all because of wrong shells and a blocked savage hole  I only use  STAG wellseal  sparingly  with a artists bush  that all you need a thin layer of WELLSEAL  will do the trick, Silicon sealants  are NOT to be used ON any Vintage Nortons  and make sure  all mating surfaces are true before any engine assembly 

     Yours   Anna J  

Re: Atlas White Smoke

Posted by andrew_windsor at Wednesday 21:55

Hi Anna,

Thank you for your information, i have got 03/03/1967 on the log book, and engine crankcase numbers 2C/115983/P if that is of any help.

I was at a bike night in Skegness last thursday night and got talking to a fellow british biker and i got round to talking about the Atlas with the smoke problem and he basically said most problem solving can be performed without taking the engine out and he seems to reckon its the oil pump pressurising up and throwing oil up the bore.

Maybe a sticking ball in the pump and check it is pumping  oil back to the tank.

I have sorted the clutch and will post the results  on my other thread

Andrew

Re: Atlas White Smoke

Posted by anna jeannette Dixon at Thursday 10:08
Previously andrew_windsor wrote:

Hi Anna,

Thank you for your information, i have got 03/03/1967 on the log book, and engine crankcase numbers 2C/115983/P if that is of any help.

I was at a bike night in Skegness last thursday night and got talking to a fellow british biker and i got round to talking about the Atlas with the smoke problem and he basically said most problem solving can be performed without taking the engine out and he seems to reckon its the oil pump pressurising up and throwing oil up the bore.

Maybe a sticking ball in the pump and check it is pumping  oil back to the tank.

I have sorted the clutch and will post the results  on my other thread

Andrew

Hello  Well you're not that far from Howden East Yorkshire the Branch meets at the Bowmans Hotel every third Thursday at 7.30 for 8 pm start, now your Norton Atlas  Number 20/115983 was built August 1965   has all the data In Roy Bacon Restoration Twins Book  is out by as much as 10 months  As machines was built much earlier than he  had data for,  Norton was Building motorcycles and then sending them to storage  on Liverpool docks even before they were delivered to the dealers  and the Factory records only tell you the despatch date and where they were sent to and any modification made to the machine in question  I have spent a long six years  studying Norton Twins Data  and the information given in books and the Dates  from machines are well different  all Norton Featherbed frame has a Date of manufacture date stamp  on the top lug next to the top yoke you have to remove seat and the fuel tank and scrap of paint to see the very small stamp markings of the date of manufacture both my Norton twin have this stamp marking  my 1954 dominator  and my 1960 Norton Manxman 650  is dated like this  M/12/60  this is what stamped on my top lug of the Norton Manxman, And the 1954 Dominator is stamped D /4/54 . now back to your oil pump you could have the 3 start oil pump so it's well worth having a look  if so your Crankshaft may have the oil holes in the shell bearings  which are for the 6 start oil pump  to sort this out you can then have to up grade to a six start oil pump which runs twice the speed of a 3 start oil pump and replace your rocker shafts with plain shafts  as the early one were  scrolled shafts  to let more oil around the rockers at low pressure has it works off the return side and has for the pressure control valve  in the outer timing case cover there are different thickness of springs and end plates for different oil pumps like 3 start and 6 start  and you could give Rodger a ring at RGM Motors he will give you some very good advice on oil pumps and presser release values  Etc   I hope you get your Nice Atlas running nicely again and enjoy your machine  ,  Yours  Anna J 
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