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Identification number of series 650SS 1964

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Re: Identification number of series 650SS 1964

Posted by glenn_osborne at May 21. 2012

 Thanks for that Benjamin. I will endeavour to find out from the current owner if there is any numbers by the breather. It is currently for sale so figured sending off to the NOC would take to long and might miss out if I decide to purchase.

Re: Identification number of series 650SS 1964

Posted by glenn_osborne at May 21. 2012

Previously wrote:

 Thanks for that Benjamin. I will endeavour to find out from the current owner if there is any numbers by the breather. It is currently for sale so figured sending off to the NOC would take to long and might miss out if I decide to purchase.

No more numbers on the crankcase but it has 650ss (942) marked on the head. I guess this indicates that it was probably a standard 650 with a ss head fitted.

Re: Identification number of series 650SS 1964

Posted by anna jeannette Dixon at May 22. 2012

Hello Glen   Well your Machine is Stamped correctly  For a very late 1961 machine ,It should Have 650SS at the back of the crankcase just above the breath pipe and then the Workshop number ,  The first 650cc machine too be built was 18-93601 , It was pulled off the line for some reason maybe for testing , But it ended up with the Workshop number being 7  and the next machine 18-93602 being stamped number 1 , All 650 Manxman's  was Stamp marked 65 or 65C . The De-luxe model was Stamped 18D on the side of the crankcases  And standard machine just had 650 Stamped on the back of the crankcases there where not many built ,and same for the De-lux models too . And later all 650SS had a Stamp marked  18SS  on the side of the crankcases. Now this information is from the Factory records And I hope This May Help!

Re: Identification number of series 650SS 1964

Posted by glenn_osborne at May 23. 2012

Thanks Anna, See my reply to Benjamin above yours. The owner got back to me and said there was no numbers on the crankcase near the breather but the 650ss (942) was marked on the head. I think I've read elsewhere in this thread, or somewhere else, it depends on who was doing the stamping on the day. Who knows, maybe the bloke stamping that day was a little under the weather from the previous night and forgot to stamp anything near the breather !

Re: identification number of series 650 SS 1964

Posted by norman_dickenson at May 24. 2012

Oops!  wrong serial number.  It is 18SS/129857/P

 

Previously wrote:

My 1970 Mercury engine and frame number is 18SS/129643/P.  According to the "lore", the Mercury was manufactured from late 1968 to early 1970 and my serial number is supposed to be towards the very end of the run.  OK, then why is there also a headstock plate with the serial number and a build date of 12/68?  I've seen another 650SS with a stamped plate riveted to the normal place where the serial number is stamped into the frame.  Was there any consistency?

 

Previously wrote:

My 1969 mercury engine number is 18ss/129496/P just for interest.

 

 

 

Re: Identification number of series 650SS 1964

Posted by anna jeannette Dixon at May 24. 2012

Previously wrote:

Previously wrote:

 Thanks for that Benjamin. I will endeavour to find out from the current owner if there is any numbers by the breather. It is currently for sale so figured sending off to the NOC would take to long and might miss out if I decide to purchase.

No more numbers on the crankcase but it has 650ss (942) marked on the head. I guess this indicates that it was probably a standard 650 with a ss head fitted.

 Hello yes may be the Stamp man had been on a bender the night before and was still drunk ! it happens yours Anna J

 

Re: Identification number of series 650SS 1964

Posted by trevor_francis at March 22. 2015

I know this is a vey old thread, but if there were no 1965 650`s with the "18SS" suffix made in 1965, then why does my 1965 650SS (registered 04/06/1965, have the "18SS" suffix?.

Re: Identification number of series 650SS 1964

Posted by phil_hannam at March 22. 2015

My 1961 Manxman engine has the engine number followed by 18 after and near to the Norton badge.  It also has just 65 and a shop number near the breather.  My Mercury engine had 18SS as a prefix to the engine number. It has no shop number stamped but there is one recorded in the Factory Records.

There have always been anomalies with regard to engine, frame and gearbox numbers on these bikes. As Anna pointed out earlier in this thread a change of shift could result in a change in the stamping pattern. I have seen engines with a variety of stampings and believe that a good many were genuine. This includes 18 or 18SS on the front as a prefix to the number and also on the crankcase side. The breather section also gets the Heinz Soup treatment with 65, 65C, 650, 650SS and nothing sometimes stamped. Plus don't forget that the very short run of DeLuxe engines had a letted 'D' added as a suffix so around 60 plus18D engines were built in the early 1960s as well.

For those of you who enjoy trying to ponder puzzling moments in the history of these bikes. Here are a few more to consider. 1) Apart from the barrels, the Mercury engines used Commando castings for the major components.  2) The last of the hybrid bikes also used Commando castings but the cylinder heads were machined to take the old top oil feed arrangement. So all the 750 and 650 engines at that time used the same 06 0380 casting.  3) The last official Factory Mercury produced was number 18SS 129894 in February 1970  but  Mercury 18SS 129896 arrived at Gus Khun Motors in April 1970.

Re: Identification number of series 650SS 1964

Posted by David Comeau at April 13. 2015

FWIW

Four more data points on engine cases

1961 right?

94449  18        65  123

94516  18        65  193

95109  18        65C 329

My cases 1962

100213  18     650 793

Do the factory records show if these are :

650

Manxman

650D 

650ss

Mercury

?? yes/no/partial/inconsistent

thanks

Re: Identification number of series 650SS 1964

Posted by anna jeannette Dixon at April 16. 2015
Previously david_comeau wrote:

FWIW

Four more data points on engine cases

1961 right?

94449  18        65  123

94516  18        65  193

95109  18        65C 329

My cases 1962

100213  18     650 793

Do the factory records show if these are :

650

Manxman

650D 

650ss

Mercury

?? yes/no/partial/inconsistent

thanks

   Hello  Now the Shop Number Do not run in Number order , lots of machine where pulled of line for one reason or another,  , But your Motorcycle is  18-100213  Stamped 650 -shop number 793   Now this machine it up to now the earliest  found thats a Standard Model 650 , they where painted in metallic Dark Grey  Known Has Smoke Grey Met,  and would of had a two-tone grey seat ,and 3.1/2 gallon tank  these machnie also had a Single caburettor fittings .And there where very little in the way of Chrome plating  other than handle bars and exhausts  and wheel rims  , Nuts and bolts where in bright nickle plate  . wheel sizes as 650ss   3.00 x19 front and 3.50x19 rear     the other number you have put on hear realate to Norton Manxman 650       they where stamp marked 65 or 65C   there Engine and frame numbers strats at 18-93601, 65 Shop Number 7 now the second machine built was number 18-93602 -65 Shop number 1  and  third Machine built was Number 18- 93603 -65  Shop number 2   on the first day of manufacure  where was 30 machines built, some may not of been completed with minor parts missing or wanting too be fitted,  this is why the Shop number do not follow in numrical order , this is information sent too me by good people in the NOC , there from the Factory records ,   Yours  Anna J

Re: Identification number of series 650SS 1964

Posted by anna jeannette Dixon at April 16. 2015
Previously anna jeannette Dixon wrote:
Previously david_comeau wrote:

FWIW

Four more data points on engine cases

1961 right?

94449  18        65  123

94516  18        65  193

95109  18        65C 329

My cases 1962

100213  18     650 793

Do the factory records show if these are :

650

Manxman

650D 

650ss

Mercury

?? yes/no/partial/inconsistent

thanks

   Hello  Now the Shop Number Do not run in Number order , lots of machine where pulled of line for one reason or another,  , But your Motorcycle is  18-100213  Stamped 650 -shop number 793   Now this machine  up to now the earliest  found Has A Standard Model 650 , they where painted in metallic Dark Grey  Known Has Smoke Grey Met,  and would of had a two-tone grey seat ,and 3.1/2 gallon tank  these machnie also had a Single caburettor fittings .And there where very little in the way of Chrome plating  other than handle bars and exhausts  and wheel rims  , Nuts and bolts where in bright nickle plate  . wheel sizes as 650ss   3.00 x19 front and 3.50x19 rear     the other number you have put on hear realate to Norton Manxman 650       they where stamp marked 65 or 65C   there Engine and frame numbers starts at 18-93601, 65 Shop Number 7 now the second machine built was number 18-93602 -65 Shop number 1  and  third Machine built was Number 18- 93603 -65  Shop number 2   on the first day of manufacure  where was 30 machines built, some may not of been completed with minor parts missing or wanting too be fitted,  this is why the Shop number do not follow in numrical order , this is information sent too me by good people in the NOC , there from the Factory records ,   Yours  Anna J

 Hello one more thing  18D  is for De-lux Models  Now Has for the Sports Models  the first ones  where stamp marked  at the back of the crankcases (650SS)  later on this changed to 18SS that the front of the engine number  , Anything Stamped with a P on the end of a engine Number  reliates to Built in Plumbstead Works  London but the last 650s  (IE) Mercury  Model some where built at Andover in Hampshire ,  and may have a M stamped with the engine Number   Yours  Anna J 

Re: Identification number of series 650SS 1964

Posted by David Comeau at April 16. 2015

"this is information sent  too me by good people in the NOC , there from the Factory records ,  "

So I assume you are saying "yes"  the records DO show.

first two numbers are engine cases with known bikes here in the US

Last two are empty cases only, one of them  I own.

Thanks

Re: Identification number of series 650SS 1964

Posted by anna jeannette Dixon at April 16. 2015
Previously david_comeau wrote:

"this is information sent  too me by good people in the NOC , there from the Factory records ,  "

So I assume you are saying "yes"  the records DO show.

first two numbers are engine cases with known bikes here in the US

Last two are empty cases only, one of them  I own.

Thanks

 Hello Well All early Machnie were sent to the USA  Including the one I have,

 it came back too the uk in 1998   and I had since 2006   now rebuilt, with the right silencers  they did have there own there diffrent to the 650SS  , And I think when they changed the 18SS to the front of the engine number was in the Plumbstead days  that be 1963 on  and were not sure How many Norton manxman 650s  from Bracebridge  Street workshop Where Built  But we think some where about 608  machnies  but   we could be wrong ,!there is no records on how many where built  it just gives a start date and a end date, And  some where made for the Police in between this lot,  and was fitted with 12 volt electrics  ,  single seat and radio tank and leg shelds  fitted with chash bars

.  yours   Anna J

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