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Identification number of series 650SS 1964

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identification number of series 650 SS 1964

Posted by bernard_franco at September 06. 2010

hello, for the acquisition of the 88 SS norton 1964 serial number 88 SS /107207/P

I not known if the number corresponds to a model 88 SS 1964 ?

tank you for answer . cordialy . bernard (norton owners club French)

Re: identification number of series 650 SS 1964

Posted by anna jeannette Dixon at September 13. 2010

Previously wrote:

hello, for the acquisition of the 88 SS norton 1964 serial number 88 SS /107207/P

I not known if the number corresponds to a model 88 SS 1964 ?

tank you for answer . cordialy . bernard (norton owners club French)

Hello Bernard   Your Machine should  be stamped 122-107207/P  and the 88ss at the back of the block and the P is for Police so this Machine is a 500cc NOT a 650cc Machine as all 650's are stamped with 18 or 18ss  hope this helps

Re: identification number of series 650 SS 1964

Posted by benjamin_gradler at September 14. 2010

Bernard is asking if his Norton is from 1964. Bernard, your Norton is from 1963. I have a spare engine with a serial number very close to yours in my basement, and I also have two complete 1962 Norton 88ss bikes for reference.

 Anna Dixon, you need to learn more about Norton twin engine stampings before you give further advice because you are wrong on a few points, and I have seen you give wrong information to others also in this area.

 Only 1962 and earlier Norton heavy twins are stamped with data on the back by the breather, later Nortons have nothing there, and the "P" does not stand for Police, as almost ALL 1963 heavy twins are stamped with a "P' in their serial number, the year Norton moved production to PLUMSTEAD, and that is what the P in the serial number stands for in this year.

 So Bernard you have a 1963 500cc 88ss .

Here is a helpful chart from the Norvil website:      http://www.norvilmotorcycle.co.uk/engrange.htm

 

Norton changed the numbering system on crankcases a few times after Bracebridge street was abandoned. In 1964 you will see the 500cc and 650cc engine cases with "122ss" and "18ss" as part of their number, then in 1965 there was no more "ss" stamping and instead there was an "M" in the engine serial number.

 

This information is all first hand from the stampings on the eight model 88, 99 and 650cc complete motorcycles I have owned and also an easy dozen+ extra engines and crankcases I have for 500-650cc dominators, not to mention looking at dozens Dominators over the decades owned by others and recording the numbers from them.

 

 

 

Re: identification number of series 650 SS 1964

Posted by andy_sochanik at September 16. 2010

Short note just to confirm that all Lightweight Twins carrying '\P' as part of the engine & frame number were made in Plumstead (the home of AJS & Matchless). Indeed, the first Norton to be made there was a Navigator. See attached picture for an example of a Norton Navigator frame number made at Plumstead.

Attachments

Re: identification number of series 650 SS 1964

Posted by steven_phelps at September 16. 2010

If you please Bernard, what does the M stand for? I think my 70 commando is a 20 M...

Re: identification number of series 650 SS 1964

Posted by ronald_milton at September 16. 2010

"then in 1965 there was no more ss stamping and instead there was an M in the engine serial number" Thats odd because my 1967 650 ss has the the engine number 18ss 123xxx and no M.

Re: identification number of series 650 SS 1964

Posted by paul_wilson at September 16. 2010

Previously wrote:

"then in 1965 there was no more ss stamping and instead there was an M in the engine serial number"

Thats odd because my 1967 650 ss has the the engine number 18ss 123xxx and no M.

1970 Mercury: 18SS/129xxx/P and no M.

Re: identification number of series 650 SS 1964

Posted by anna jeannette Dixon at September 17. 2010

Previously wrote:

Previously wrote:

hello, for the acquisition of the 88 SS norton 1964 serial number 88 SS /107207/P

I not known if the number corresponds to a model 88 SS 1964 ?

tank you for answer . cordialy . bernard (norton owners club French)

Hello Bernard   Your Machine should  be stamped 122-107207/P  and the 88ss at the back of the block and the P is for Police so this Machine is a 500cc NOT a 650cc Machine as all 650's are stamped with 18 or 18ss  hope this helps

Hello I see You Have Send My Deliberate Mistake That Got You all Writing In Too Jump All over Me Do you Think I am some Blond bimbo with on Brains  ? I have Been Riding Norton Motorcycles 40years  So Bewhere I with Be Testing You ???

Re: identification number of series 650 SS 1964

Posted by bernard_franco at September 17. 2010

Previously wrote:

Previously wrote:

Previously wrote:

hello, for the acquisition of the 88 SS norton 1964 serial number 88 SS /107207/P

I not known if the number corresponds to a model 88 SS 1964 ?

tank you for answer . cordialy . bernard (norton owners club French)

Hello Bernard   Your Machine should  be stamped 122-107207/P  and the 88ss at the back of the block and the P is for Police so this Machine is a 500cc NOT a 650cc Machine as all 650's are stamped with 18 or 18ss  hope this helps

Hello I see You Have Send My Deliberate Mistake That Got You all Writing In Too Jump All over Me Do you Think I am some Blond bimbo with on Brains  ? I have Been Riding Norton Motorcycles 40years  So Bewhere I with Be Testing You ???

Hello anna, thank you for the informations, but I made a mistake on the N° bad transmission on my part the N° correct are (18SS/107207/P) Sorry for my english. Bernard

Re: identification number of series 650 SS 1964

Posted by benjamin_gradler at September 18. 2010

Previously wrote:

"then in 1965 there was no more ss stamping and instead there was an M in the engine serial number" Thats odd because my 1967 650 ss has the the engine number 18ss 123xxx and no M.

 

Right, if you read more carefully and make fewer assumptions, I said "in" and not "after". I have no 1967 engines to comment on, so since you do thanks for adding a piece to the puzzle....

Re: identification number of series 650 SS 1964

Posted by phil_hannam at September 19. 2010

Hello everybody

Just thought that I would chuck a few words into this muddle.

 

My Commando has an M in its engine number but no P.  As in 20/M3S/ 150*** 

My two 1967 Atlas engines also do not have any Ms. ie 20/120***  & 20/123***.  My 1965 Atlas does have a P but no M. ie 20/113***/P.  Just in case the blond bimber with 'on brians' is reading, the real numbers do not have asterists in them either.  Data Protection Act.

Have I lost some Ms & Ps somewhere?

 

Moving on.......I am now going to throw some stones!!!

Page 6 in the 2010 Norvil Catalogue informs the world that the first Norton 650 was engine number 100200 and arrived on the scene in October 1961.  They have been giving  this info out for quite a few years now.  Whereas, those NOC people with the actual factory records will tell you that 650 engined bikes were being built around 12 months earlier with most machines heading for the USA by December 1960. Engine number 93601 being recognised as the first in this Norton 650 Manxman group.

 

Engine number stampings appear to depend upon who was 'stampman' on the day at the factory. I have come across 122SS, 88SS, 18SS & 650SS stamped on various Norton engines from 1960 onwards. Somebody must know why.

The first batch of 650 engines were sold in both single and twin carb forms and had 18 stamped on the crankcases, front left and 650 at the back by the breather.

.............and what about the engine numbers stamped Mercury models of circa 1969/70?

Bernard needs to contact the NOC Librarian who will probably be able to help sort out when his bike was actually built.

Re: identification number of series 650 SS 1964

Posted by anna jeannette Dixon at September 19. 2010

Previously wrote:

Hello everybody

Just thought that I would chuck a few words into this muddle.

 

My Commando has an M in its engine number but no P.  As in 20/M3S/ 150*** 

My two 1967 Atlas engines also do not have any Ms. ie 20/120***  & 20/123***.  My 1965 Atlas does have a P but no M. ie 20/113***/P.  Just in case the blond bimber with 'on brians' is reading, the real numbers do not have asterists in them either.  Data Protection Act.

Have I lost some Ms & Ps somewhere?

 

Moving on.......I am now going to throw some stones!!!

Page 6 in the 2010 Norvil Catalogue informs the world that the first Norton 650 was engine number 100200 and arrived on the scene in October 1961.  They have been giving  this info out for quite a few years now.  Whereas, those NOC people with the actual factory records will tell you that 650 engined bikes were being built around 12 months earlier with most machines heading for the USA by December 1960. Engine number 93601 being recognised as the first in this Norton 650 Manxman group.

 

Engine number stampings appear to depend upon who was 'stampman' on the day at the factory. I have come across 122SS, 88SS, 18SS & 650SS stamped on various Norton engines from 1960 onwards. Somebody must know why.

The first batch of 650 engines were sold in both single and twin carb forms and had 18 stamped on the crankcases, front left and 650 at the back by the breather.

.............and what about the engine numbers stamped Mercury models of circa 1969/70?

Bernard needs to contact the NOC Librarian who will probably be able to help sort out when his bike was actually built.

Hello Phill As The Blonde Bimbo With NO Brians ? The NOC Librarian can only give the infomation On the Factory Records  This does NOT mean That your Bike Was built one THAT DAY  As Recorded  ,As The Records And Stamp-man Could up to 2 Weeks Behind Hand ? As Bracebridge Street Was a Small Factory Compared With Triumph And BSA ? And Norton Built Motorcyles in batchs of 30 a Day  , Yours  The Blonde Bimbo ?   Anna J Dixon   Secretary East Yorkshire Branch 

 

Re: identification number of series 650 SS 1964

Posted by benjamin_gradler at September 23. 2010

"The first batch of 650 engines were sold in both single and twin carb forms and had 18 stamped on the crankcases, front left and 650 at the back by the breather."

 

 I have the 2nd Norton 650 built and an acquaintance of mine here in the USA has the thirteenth, and they are both dual carburettor american spec Manxmans. They do not have 650 stamped by the breather, in fact I have had two Manxman motorcycles myself, looked at many more, and have half a dozen extra manxman engines and none of them had 650 stamped on them, they have either "65" or "65C" stamped on the back. I am sure that "65C" does not refer to a bike with coil ignition either, as every single American spec Manxman  I have seen with this stamping has a k2fc magneto on it.

 

I have model 88ss, 99, Manxman and 650ss engines and motorcycles dating from 1959 through 1965 and the stampings are consistent in each year, but they are not consistent from one year to the next. We have heard from owners of engines and bikes from throughout the sixties and it is interesting to see their engine stampings from each year.

 

 The numbers on engine crankcases WERE very consistent and made a lot of sense year to year at the original Bracebridge Street factory, but from 1963-on when production moved to the AMC works is when the engine stamping system seems to have changed from year to year. Thank goodness they at least kept the actual serial numbers going!

 

 

 

Re: identification number of series 650 SS 1964

Posted by adrian_gidney at November 24. 2010

Previously wrote:

Previously wrote:

Hello everybody

Just thought that I would chuck a few words into this muddle.

 

My Commando has an M in its engine number but no P.  As in 20/M3S/ 150*** 

My two 1967 Atlas engines also do not have any Ms. ie 20/120***  & 20/123***.  My 1965 Atlas does have a P but no M. ie 20/113***/P.  Just in case the blond bimber with 'on brians' is reading, the real numbers do not have asterists in them either.  Data Protection Act.

Have I lost some Ms & Ps somewhere?

 

Moving on.......I am now going to throw some stones!!!

Page 6 in the 2010 Norvil Catalogue informs the world that the first Norton 650 was engine number 100200 and arrived on the scene in October 1961.  They have been giving  this info out for quite a few years now.  Whereas, those NOC people with the actual factory records will tell you that 650 engined bikes were being built around 12 months earlier with most machines heading for the USA by December 1960. Engine number 93601 being recognised as the first in this Norton 650 Manxman group.

 

Engine number stampings appear to depend upon who was 'stampman' on the day at the factory. I have come across 122SS, 88SS, 18SS & 650SS stamped on various Norton engines from 1960 onwards. Somebody must know why.

The first batch of 650 engines were sold in both single and twin carb forms and had 18 stamped on the crankcases, front left and 650 at the back by the breather.

.............and what about the engine numbers stamped Mercury models of circa 1969/70?

Bernard needs to contact the NOC Librarian who will probably be able to help sort out when his bike was actually built.

Hello Phill As The Blonde Bimbo With NO Brians ? The NOC Librarian can only give the infomation On the Factory Records  This does NOT mean That your Bike Was built one THAT DAY  As Recorded  ,As The Records And Stamp-man Could up to 2 Weeks Behind Hand ? As Bracebridge Street Was a Small Factory Compared With Triumph And BSA ? And Norton Built Motorcyles in batchs of 30 a Day  , Yours  The Blonde Bimbo ?   Anna J Dixon   Secretary East Yorkshire Branch 

 

WOW.................. THINGS ARE HOTTING UP IN THE NORTON OWNERS CLUB,  PITY I CANNOT HAVE SOME OF THIS HEAT IN MY GARAGE ON THESE COLD WINTER NIGHTS

Re: identification number of series 650 SS 1964

Posted by anna jeannette Dixon at November 26. 2010

hello adrian you could allways give me a hugg to keep warm In your garage ? yours  The auburn  Bimbo now ? but I am no Bimbo ? the spelling misstake is not down me its my keyboard that goes wonkey now and then , I am getting a new computer soon ? yours anna j dixon  

Re: identification number of series 650 SS 1964

Posted by dominic_gomes at November 30. 2010

My 1969 mercury engine number is 18ss/129496/P just for interest.

Re: identification number of series 650 SS 1964

Posted by peter_bowman1 at January 08. 2011

Very interesting (and entertaining) thread here. So I have a question - were the earliest 650SS's all stamped with 650SS on the back of the crank case (shop engine number area), or were they simply stamped 650? If just 650, any way to tell if it was originally a 650SS, or a Manxman that has been turned into a 650SS? Or is there rally any difference?

 

Peter B.

USA

Re: identification number of series 650 SS 1964

Posted by anna jeannette Dixon at January 09. 2011

Previously wrote:

Very interesting (and entertaining) thread here. So I have a question - were the earliest 650SS's all stamped with 650SS on the back of the crank case (shop engine number area), or were they simply stamped 650? If just 650, any way to tell if it was originally a 650SS, or a Manxman that has been turned into a 650SS? Or is there rally any difference?

 

Peter B.

USA

Hello Peter B Well The First Norton 650 Was The Manxman and The Fisrt 30 Machine rolled of the line on the 7th of November 1960 these continued untill September 1961 with Manxman was Sold In the UK As Manxman SS These had 650 SS Stamed on the back just above the breather pipe and slod for one month then things changed the name Manxman was dropped and 650 Sport special was adopted And the paint work was changed to black&sliver A Mans Colour ?along with a new parts manual ? So That Leves The Norton Manxman As a Limited addition as there was only some 800 or so built ? and the lots of changes made to the 650SS the frames lugs are in diffrent places to the manxman not notest until you get your tape mesuer out ? the tanks there bigger and back wheel had gone from wm3,18inch too wm2,19inch the seat pan had changed and the handel bar had changed So there are a lot  of differentes between the two machines ? Hope This Helps Your Anna J Dixon A Norton Manxman 650cc Owner

Re: identification number of series 650 SS 1964

Posted by peter_bowman1 at January 09. 2011

Previously wrote:

Previously wrote:

Very interesting (and entertaining) thread here. So I have a question - were the earliest 650SS's all stamped with 650SS on the back of the crank case (shop engine number area), or were they simply stamped 650? If just 650, any way to tell if it was originally a 650SS, or a Manxman that has been turned into a 650SS? Or is there rally any difference?

 

Peter B.

USA

Hello Peter B Well The First Norton 650 Was The Manxman and The Fisrt 30 Machine rolled of the line on the 7th of November 1960 these continued untill September 1961 with Manxman was Sold In the UK As Manxman SS These had 650 SS Stamed on the back just above the breather pipe and slod for one month then things changed the name Manxman was dropped and 650 Sport special was adopted And the paint work was changed to black&sliver A Mans Colour ?along with a new parts manual ? So That Leves The Norton Manxman As a Limited addition as there was only some 800 or so built ? and the lots of changes made to the 650SS the frames lugs are in diffrent places to the manxman not notest until you get your tape mesuer out ? the tanks there bigger and back wheel had gone from wm3,18inch too wm2,19inch the seat pan had changed and the handel bar had changed So there are a lot  of differentes between the two machines ? Hope This Helps Your Anna J Dixon A Norton Manxman 650cc Owner

 

Very helpful, thanks Anna!

 

Peter B.

 

Re: identification number of series 650 SS 1964

Posted by benjamin_gradler at January 16. 2011

" and the lots of changes made to the 650SS the frames lugs are in diffrent places to the manxman not notest until you get your tape mesuer out ? the tanks there bigger and back wheel had gone from wm3,18inch too wm2,19inch the seat pan had changed and the handel bar had changed So there are a lot  of differentes between the two machines ? Hope This Helps Your Anna J Dixon A Norton Manxman 650cc Owner"

 

Frame lugs on Manxman and 650ss are identical as long as the 650ss and Manxman are both manufactured at Bracebridge Street. It was when Norton production was moved to the AMC works that the front engine mounts were not relocated, but merely turned upside-down....

 

Many 650ss bikes were sold in the USA with the exact same fuel tank as the Manxman. Also, 650ss bikes sold in the USA had the exact same 18" rear wheel as the Manxman. The early 1962 USA 650ss bikes were in fact identical to the blue Norton Manxman except for paint color, mufflers, and the rev-counter being optional instead of standard, and of course they were stamped "650ss" on the engine.

 

 

 

Re: Identification number of series 650SS 1964

Posted by matt_mcdermott at January 21. 2011

As this thread involves a number of members with post 63/64 featherbeds, could I enquire if any of you are aware that your roadholder forks are not 'short roadholders' but contain longer springs (as in 'long roadholders) and longer damper tubes - see thread "fork shrouds", particularly input from Bill.

Matt

Re: identification number of series 650 SS 1964

Posted by adrian_gidney at February 17. 2011

Previously wrote:

hello adrian you could allways give me a hugg to keep warm In your garage ? yours  The auburn  Bimbo now ? but I am no Bimbo ? the spelling misstake is not down me its my keyboard that goes wonkey now and then , I am getting a new computer soon ? yours anna j dixon  

auburn huh.........  i have never seen you so i would not know,,,,,,,,,,,i never saw this.....so..... what on earth did i say ?? what ever it was it was meant as a joke , certainly not as an insult.  feb 2011

Re: Identification number of series 650SS 1964

Posted by adrian_gidney at February 17. 2011

Ah...................... now i remember ........................ no insult there, certainly not meant with any malice ...... just my odd sense of humour . 

 

please could you tell me of any differences in wideline to slimline swinging arms if you know of any , thanks

Re: identification number of series 650 SS 1964

Posted by adrian_gidney at February 17. 2011

Previously wrote:

Previously wrote:

hello adrian you could allways give me a hugg to keep warm In your garage ? yours  The auburn  Bimbo now ? but I am no Bimbo ? the spelling misstake is not down me its my keyboard that goes wonkey now and then , I am getting a new computer soon ? yours anna j dixon  

auburn huh.........  i have never seen you so i would not know,,,,,,,,,,,i never saw this.....so..... what on earth did i say ?? what ever it was it was meant as a joke , certainly not as an insult.  feb 2011

ah , but thinking about it , i am single ... and could do with an auburn haired friend with a couple of 'on the road' Nortons to ride on special occasions

Re: identification number of series 650 SS 1964

Posted by tony_downie at March 05. 2011

Previously wrote:

hello, for the acquisition of the 88 SS norton 1964 serial number 88 SS /107207/P

I not known if the number corresponds to a model 88 SS 1964 ?

tank you for answer . cordialy . bernard (norton owners club French)

Hi Bernard, I have a 1963 650ss, engine number 18SS/107263/P this is not very far away from your 107207. The frame number on my bike is also the same. My bike was first registered in the UK on 9th September 1963. I hope this may help. 

Re: identification number of series 650 SS 1964

Posted by marcus_rebeschini at October 20. 2011

Previously benjamin_gradler wrote:

Bernard is asking if his Norton is from 1964. Bernard, your Norton is from 1963. I have a spare engine with a serial number very close to yours in my basement, and I also have two complete 1962 Norton 88ss bikes for reference.

 Anna Dixon, you need to learn more about Norton twin engine stampings before you give further advice because you are wrong on a few points, and I have seen you give wrong information to others also in this area.

 Only 1962 and earlier Norton heavy twins are stamped with data on the back by the breather, later Nortons have nothing there, and the "P" does not stand for Police, as almost ALL 1963 heavy twins are stamped with a "P' in their serial number, the year Norton moved production to PLUMSTEAD, and that is what the P in the serial number stands for in this year.

 So Bernard you have a 1963 500cc 88ss .

Here is a helpful chart from the Norvil website:      http://www.norvilmotorcycle.co.uk/engrange.htm

 

Norton changed the numbering system on crankcases a few times after Bracebridge street was abandoned. In 1964 you will see the 500cc and 650cc engine cases with "122ss" and "18ss" as part of their number, then in 1965 there was no more "ss" stamping and instead there was an "M" in the engine serial number.

 

This information is all first hand from the stampings on the eight model 88, 99 and 650cc complete motorcycles I have owned and also an easy dozen+ extra engines and crankcases I have for 500-650cc dominators, not to mention looking at dozens Dominators over the decades owned by others and recording the numbers from them.

 

 

 

 

Re: Identification number of series 650SS 1964

Posted by marcus_rebeschini at October 20. 2011

Hi i am looking at buying a 500SS - 1963 model.

Was wondering if someone could help me on the numbers part.

Chassis No starts with: 122

Engine No starts with: 104

Could someone help me to know if it sound right? Matching numbers & an actual 500SS 

1963 model?

Thanks in advance!

 

 

Re: Identification number of series 650SS 1964

Posted by anna jeannette Dixon at October 21. 2011

Previously wrote:

Hi i am looking at buying a 500SS - 1963 model.

Was wondering if someone could help me on the numbers part.

Chassis No starts with: 122

Engine No starts with: 104

Could someone help me to know if it sound right? Matching numbers & an actual 500SS 

1963 model?

Thanks in advance!

 

 Hello Marcus  No The Engine And Frame Numbers start with the same number ,ie   j122 54698 engine number frame number  j122 54698 . Do you see ?  if it was a 1963 some numbers  changed to 88ss .then the number, but the 500cc super sport model 88 was built from april 1961 , it had the 650cc Manxman Crankcases and camshaft and camfollowers and pushrods ,and valves too and the multi- rate valve springs ,coloures where Green and Dove grey up to 1962/3 ,sliver and black after that date up too 1966 when this model was dropped from the range , hope  this may help a bit ? your AJDixon

 

Re: Identification number of series 650SS 1964

Posted by glenn_osborne at May 20. 2012

Well this is certainly doing my head in ! So who can decipher this number supposedly a 1961 650SS.

100783 18

Should or shouldn't the 18 have SS stamped next to it. I have only seen a photo of the number and not very good quality at that but the number on the crankcase appears to be 18 then an oval shaped red Norton Plate next to it. The rest of the number is further to the front hidden behind horn in this picture. You can just make out last two digits. Is this normal ?

Re: Identification number of series 650SS 1964

Posted by benjamin_gradler at May 21. 2012

Did you send the numbers off this bike to the NOC and ask for a records check? The first year for the 650ss model was 1962, and they were stamped "650ss" on the back of the cases where the engine crankcase breather exits, along with the engine shop number. After AMC took over production they changed the way the engines were stamped, marking some 650ss bikes with an "18SS" around 1963-64' and later on changed the stamping more than once before production ended.

 The earliest 1962 650ss I have seen was stamped 995xx, more than a thousand bikes before this one, so it is not an especially early bike.

   Norton still had non-SS 650 twins available for sale in 1962, so if there is no "650ss" stamping on the cases where it should be, then it would be a bike that originally left the factory as a 650 Standard or DeLuxe model, and might be stamped with a "65" or "65C" or just plain "650" back by the breather. I would not know for sure about all the stampings on the 650 Standard or DeLuxe as I have never seen one first-hand, they seem to be much, much more rare than the 650ss bikes!

    I would not be surprised after all these years if most 650 Standard or 650 Deluxe bikes were re-done by young men wanting a more sporting bike to mimic the 650ss by fitting twin carbs and switching to the 650ss paint scheme...... I have seen some of the DeLuxe model 88 and 99 bikes with their special body-work first-hand, and am glad that at least a few have made it through intact over the last 50 years....

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