Frame/Engine numbers...99

I have a Norton 99 that I'm thinking of selling, but the engine number is not the same as the frame number. Would this model have had matching numbers, or is there anyway of checking that the engine and frame numbers are original, as I'd like to know before I sell it. Also is there any way of valuing the bike approximately?

Thanks

Trevor

Oops...found the section on the site about engine/frame number records so will use that

Could still use information about valuation though please

Trevor

Previously wrote:

I have a Norton 99 that I'm thinking of selling, but the engine number is not the same as the frame number. Would this model have had matching numbers, or is there anyway of checking that the engine and frame numbers are original, as I'd like to know before I sell it. Also is there any way of valuing the bike approximately?

 

Thanks

 

Trevor

Don't worry about matching numbers,it's a modern ploy used by some people to lower the value of a bike they are about to buy.Which would you prefer-a bike with non matching but a good engine or matching numbers with a clapped out engine?Unless it was to be a show bike.

How many cars have matching numbers?Are they worth less if not.

Valuation depends on the year and condition.

The value of a machine will generally depend on its age, appearance, scarcity and market demand. The other possible factor is whoever comes to look at the bike and how well you can  persuade them to purchase.

The ads in the glossy monthly magazines tend to contain outrageous prices that only people with more money than sense would pay.

I would suggest you look at the 'Machines For Sale' section of Old Bike Mart.  This tends to attract motorcycles that are regularly run and in a condition that corresponds to this. ie. several levels below concours but not rusting wrecks, unless stated.  Elsewhere in the same paper you will find dealers ads with much higher prices, often for bikes in not much better condition.  The value of your bike should fall somewhere inbetween.

Prices of nearly all Nortons are continuing to rise with dealers asking up to £7500 for some Dominator models.  Basket cases are now often tagged with a haggling price of up to two grand.

Bargains can still be had from private sellers. eg. £2500 for a clean & tidy 99 in running condition plus current MoT.  £3500 appears to be the asking price for really good, nearly original, display condition 88 & 99 bikes.  Anthing fast or unusual eg, 650SS, mint condition Model 7 or rare P11 and you can wave goodbye to an arm and both legs. ie. Five grand plus.

Thanks...now hopefully to find someone with more money than sense lol

Previously wrote:

Thanks...now hopefully to find someone with more money than sense lol

i have no sense at all...................... and nearly the same amount of money

but do have good credit

no 1 question . is it a wideline please

I'm sure it's a slimline. Unfortunately due to work commitments, I can't get to the bike for a few weeks, but i will get someone to check that. I'll also try and get a photo uploaded if I can

I'm pretty sure it's a slimline as it's a 1963 model...I'm away from the bike for a while, but can get someone to check

Previously wrote:

Previously wrote:

Previously wrote:

Thanks...now hopefully to find someone with more money than sense lol

i have no sense at all...................... and nearly the same amount of money

 

but do have good credit

no 1 question . is it a wideline please

 

The bike is registered in 1963, so I'm pretty sure it's a slimline. Will get someone to check, as I'm away for work for a few weeks and can't get to the bike

 

 Photo attached...unfortunately chain is in way...will try and get a better one done

for sure it's a slimline . and i said i ha,ve good credit

but its way way too shiny . hence worth a couple of shillings more than i could borrow, ... joking aside i really need a wideline 88 of 59 vintage but do like the look of it for sure please let me know when you advertise it , agidney@jaguarlandrover.com............ cheers

Hi Trevor - the photo is of a slimline frame as you couldn't get that petrol tank on a wideline!  It would be correct for a 1963 bike as the changeover year was 1959/1960.

Back to your first point, You should be able to check original frame and engine numbers in the log book.

Previously wrote:

Trevor

Don't worry about matching numbers,it's a modern ploy used by some people to lower the value of a bike they are about to buy.Which would you prefer-a bike with non matching but a good engine or matching numbers with a clapped out engine?Unless it was to be a show bike.

How many cars have matching numbers?Are they worth less if not.

Valuation depends on the year and condition.

 

The only people that have to worry about matching engine and frame numbers are smart collectors who do not want a "bitza", a bike built up from parts of different motorcycles.

Myself, a serious collector who is interested in the history of Norton motorcycles, am always thrilled to discover a bike that is relatively as it was when it left the factory. This makes it a historical document that can help those researching and interested  in more than just commuting.

Yes, real collector vehicles, whether they be classic automobiles or motorcycles or even bicycles, are certainly worth more in the open market the more original their condition is, that is common sense. And it is the easiest thing in the world to witness if you look at the prices things actually sell for in auctions.

 The bitza bikes are for riders, they are to have fun with because they will never be real collectors items again, unless  you are talking about extremely rare machinery or one that was raced in that state by a famous rider or racer.

Saying  a Picasso painting that was re=done and painted over by a backyard artist is worth as much as an original untouched painting albeit with a few scuffs and some mold is ridiculous.

 

Yes, model 99 Nortons should have matching frame and engine numbers. If yours does not then simply get someone with experience with Ebay to auction it off, that way you will get EXACTLY what the bike is worth as it's price will be decided by the most watched market for classic motorbikes in the world bar none. It will get the most exposure this way to the maximum number or interested buyers.

 I certainly hope people  do not try to pawn off bikes on ignorant people as something that they are not, though I am sure it happens all the time both innocently and also purposely by the unscrupulous.

 

The only people that have to worry about matching engine and frame numbers are smart collectors who do not want a "bitza", a bike built up from parts of different motorcycles.

Myself, a serious collector who is interested in the history of Norton motorcycles, am always thrilled to discover a bike that is relatively as it was when it left the factory. This makes it a historical document that can help those researching and interested  in more than just commuting.

Yes, real collector vehicles, whether they be classic automobiles or motorcycles or even bicycles, are certainly worth more in the open market the more original their condition is, that is common sense. And it is the easiest thing in the world to witness if you look at the prices things actually sell for in auctions.

 The bitza bikes are for riders, they are to have fun with because they will never be real collectors items again, unless  you are talking about extremely rare machinery or one that was raced in that state by a famous rider or racer.

Saying  a Picasso painting that was re=done and painted over by a backyard artist is worth as much as an original untouched painting albeit with a few scuffs and some mold is ridiculous.

Yes, model 99 Nortons should have matching frame and engine numbers. If yours does not then simply get someone with experience with Ebay to auction it off, that way you will get EXACTLY what the bike is worth as it's price will be decided by the most watched market for classic motorbikes in the world bar none. It will get the most exposure this way to the maximum number or interested buyers.

 I certainly hope people  do not try to pawn off bikes on ignorant people as something that they are not, though I am sure it happens all the time both innocently and also purposely by the unscrupulous.

Previously wrote:

The only people that have to worry about matching engine and frame numbers are smart collectors who do not want a "bitza", a bike built up from parts of different motorcycles.

Myself, a serious collector who is interested in the history of Norton motorcycles, am always thrilled to discover a bike that is relatively as it was when it left the factory. This makes it a historical document that can help those researching and interested  in more than just commuting.

Yes, real collector vehicles, whether they be classic automobiles or motorcycles or even bicycles, are certainly worth more in the open market the more original their condition is, that is common sense. And it is the easiest thing in the world to witness if you look at the prices things actually sell for in auctions.

 The bitza bikes are for riders, they are to have fun with because they will never be real collectors items again, unless  you are talking about extremely rare machinery or one that was raced in that state by a famous rider or racer.

Saying  a Picasso painting that was re=done and painted over by a backyard artist is worth as much as an original untouched painting albeit with a few scuffs and some mold is ridiculous.

 

Yes, model 99 Nortons should have matching frame and engine numbers. If yours does not then simply get someone with experience with Ebay to auction it off, that way you will get EXACTLY what the bike is worth as it's price will be decided by the most watched market for classic motorbikes in the world bar none. It will get the most exposure this way to the maximum number or interested buyers.

 I certainly hope people  do not try to pawn off bikes on ignorant people as something that they are not, though I am sure it happens all the time both innocently and also purposely by the unscrupulous.

 

As an eBay buyer with many years of experience I would have to disagree that it's the best place to get a bike's true value.  It's absolutely NOT the best place to get the true worth of anything!  It is quite definitely a BUYER'S market place and is very fickle!  It all depends on who when and what people are watching!  I have bought items for 'peanuts' one week and a couple of weeks later identical things have sold for 4 or 5 times what I paid!  The selling prices fluctuate massively.  My interests are very diverse and range from musical instruments (guitars and amps) to Antique Pocket Watches and classic bikes - plus a lot more in between.  I know for certain that eBay isn't the place to find out what something is WORTH as it varies from day-to-day.  I'd always recommend selling bike through the specialist magazines such as Old Bike Mart, but BUYING them through eBay!

"As an eBay buyer with many years of experience I would have to disagree that it's the best place to get a bike's true value.  It's absolutely NOT the best place to get the true worth of anything!"

 This is why I told the owner of the bike to get someone with experience selling bikes on ebay to list it for him. An experience seller will be able to get a good and fair price out of the bike.

 If you are lucky enough to buy something on ebay for less than it is worth it is because it was poorly listed. If the seller makes the auction for too short a time and limits its exposure, if the seller has the auction ending at a stupid time when everyone is at work or out on holiday, if the seller is not knowledgeable about what he is selling and lists it poorly so it is not found by those who would have an interest in it or describes it poorly, THAT is when ebay does not do what it is supposed to do.

I have bought things for below market value on ebay many times, but it has always been through a mistake of the seller.

Vintage Norton motorcycles are sought after enough that if one is listed competently it will fetch a very good price every time. I have sold three of them on Ebay in the last year and I got a lot more than I would have got listing them in a club newsletter etc. because I would have not put as high a price on them.

 Of course all my bikes I sold were matching number machines that collectors were eager to snap up. A bitza with no matching numbers might fetch the same amount sold as one piece or parted out unless it was really nicely done and ready to start up and ride...

When we speak of 'matching' numbers in the context of post-war Nortons, we really mean of course 'identical numbers' and there is no doubt that all things being equal, most buyers would prefer to have them as they left the factory. We are though only talking about two components, the drive side crankase half and the frame. 'Matching' numbers on an older Norton (and most cars ?) are not identical and can only be linked by the factory records.

If the numbers aren't identical, the new owner has the fun of researching two machines ! There's even more history to learn then !

In my view, a lot depends on provenance. If I had the choice between a one careful owner documented bike which threw a rod and received a replacement engine in 1965 but has retained all the correct cycle parts, I would choose that above a bike that could have been crashed, bashed and café-racered before being rebuilt using cheap pattern parts but which coincidentally still has the two numbered components.

The clues to a bitsa lie in more than simply the numbers.

Previously wrote:

When we speak of 'matching' numbers in the context of post-war Nortons, we really mean of course 'identical numbers' and there is no doubt that all things being equal, most buyers would prefer to have them as they left the factory. We are though only talking about two components, the drive side crankase half and the frame. 'Matching' numbers on an older Norton (and most cars ?) are not identical and can only be linked by the factory records.

If the numbers aren't identical, the new owner has the fun of researching two machines ! There's even more history to learn then !

In my view, a lot depends on provenance. If I had the choice between a one careful owner documented bike which threw a rod and received a replacement engine in 1965 but has retained all the correct cycle parts, I would choose that above a bike that could have been crashed, bashed and café-racered before being rebuilt using cheap pattern parts but which coincidentally still has the two numbered components.

The clues to a bitsa lie in more than simply the numbers.

 Thank you Richard,my feelings exactly,although you put it much better than I!

 In reality it is the frame that is the core of the bike and all other parts are liable to wear and tear and some will have been replaced several times over the course of 40/50 years.

Previously wrote:

The only people that have to worry about matching engine and frame numbers are smart collectors who do not want a "bitza", a bike built up from parts of different motorcycles.

Myself, a serious collector who is interested in the history of Norton motorcycles, am always thrilled to discover a bike that is relatively as it was when it left the factory. This makes it a historical document that can help those researching and interested  in more than just commuting.

Yes, real collector vehicles, whether they be classic automobiles or motorcycles or even bicycles, are certainly worth more in the open market the more original their condition is, that is common sense. And it is the easiest thing in the world to witness if you look at the prices things actually sell for in auctions.

 The bitza bikes are for riders, they are to have fun with because they will never be real collectors items again, unless  you are talking about extremely rare machinery or one that was raced in that state by a famous rider or racer.

Saying  a Picasso painting that was re=done and painted over by a backyard artist is worth as much as an original untouched painting albeit with a few scuffs and some mold is ridiculous.

 

Yes, model 99 Nortons should have matching frame and engine numbers. If yours does not then simply get someone with experience with Ebay to auction it off, that way you will get EXACTLY what the bike is worth as it's price will be decided by the most watched market for classic motorbikes in the world bar none. It will get the most exposure this way to the maximum number or interested buyers.

 I certainly hope people  do not try to pawn off bikes on ignorant people as something that they are not, though I am sure it happens all the time both innocently and also purposely by the unscrupulous.

 

having been an (addicted)E BAY user since 2003 i can categorically state that the level of the unscrupulous has increased at a faster rate than the rabbit population in the  field down the road from me, i do agree that it is the most watched site, you bid you buy, its done , not like an advert, 2 or 3 in the NOC adverts i asked about , i never got an answer, why ?,  , what happened to good manners and a quick call or even e-mail saying ' sorry its sold or your tenth in line , dont hold your breath for it . with e bay your there on the button with a chance to win, but photo's dont tell the truth either ... so some you win happily and the others are a bit of a disappointment ... to say the least.i just found one on e bay registered 1958.... slimline frame , correct numbers in the v5 ??? 88ss engine when the book states 600 cc 99......but its there to buy, not like the adverts......, even with my e mail ad..... trevor has not replied to me , too late now sir, thanks. 

 I am very suprised that the manxman yorkshire lass never picked it up on e bay, she must be on holiday, she put me dead right on mine ... so well informed, simply amazing but no comments from her on this oddy.

Previously wrote:

"As an eBay buyer with many years of experience I would have to disagree that it's the best place to get a bike's true value.  It's absolutely NOT the best place to get the true worth of anything!"

 This is why I told the owner of the bike to get someone with experience selling bikes on ebay to list it for him. An experience seller will be able to get a good and fair price out of the bike.

 If you are lucky enough to buy something on ebay for less than it is worth it is because it was poorly listed. If the seller makes the auction for too short a time and limits its exposure, if the seller has the auction ending at a stupid time when everyone is at work or out on holiday, if the seller is not knowledgeable about what he is selling and lists it poorly so it is not found by those who would have an interest in it or describes it poorly, THAT is when ebay does not do what it is supposed to do.

 

I have bought things for below market value on ebay many times, but it has always been through a mistake of the seller.

Vintage Norton motorcycles are sought after enough that if one is listed competently it will fetch a very good price every time. I have sold three of them on Ebay in the last year and I got a lot more than I would have got listing them in a club newsletter etc. because I would have not put as high a price on them.

 Of course all my bikes I sold were matching number machines that collectors were eager to snap up. A bitza with no matching numbers might fetch the same amount sold as one piece or parted out unless it was really nicely done and ready to start up and ride...

Hi Benjamin, We'll have to agree to disagree on the validity of using eBay for valuations.  I will categorically state that it ISN'T the place to sell things of high value, unless you want a quick sale and get rid of it.  You do not judge the trues value of an item by the amount it sells for on eBay!  'Proper' auctions maybe, but NOT eBay!  I have quite a collection of disparate items that were cheap on eBay and well below true market value that were definitely NOT the result of poor listings or descriptions.  (E.g. 17 Sterling Silver antique pocket watches - and rising!) I have too many other items for this to be the case!  I too am a very hardened eBayer and know that I will never sell anything there that I want the true value of!  I can quote you endless stories and instances to show why, but I won't here.  Without doubt, the best place to sell a Classic Bike is in OBM - or possibly in the NOC Classifieds?  As already stated, the advertisers in the glossies ask way too much - BUT they probably sell them!  So how's that for a valuation?  Trust me - I'm an expert!