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Valve Gear Lubrication

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Valve Gear Lubrication

Posted by Alaster Bentley at October 08. 2017

Dear Enthusiasts, Can anyone out there help with a problem I have with my Dominator 99, 1958?

At the moment, I have no oil at all reaching the valve gear via the pipe from the oil tank banjo to the head.

Basically, if I put my finger over the return hole in the pipe in the oil tank, Bingo! Plenty of oil coming through to the rocker shafts. Finger away, no oil. Should there be a restrictor in the pipe union or something?  Any thoughts? Many thanks in advance.

Oily Al.

Re: Valve Gear Lubrication

Posted by robert_tuck at October 10. 2017

Hi Al,   Only a little oil reaches the head normally  ,The inlet areas look oily but the exhaust areas look dry. This is not good enough, and rockers will sqeek  and spindles seize and wear the head.It is possible that your pump is worn and not up to the job ,check that first, If ok I would fit a restrictor in the return ,read previous posts.

Re: Valve Gear Lubrication

Posted by Alaster Bentley at October 10. 2017

Hi Robert,

I think that you may be right about the pump. It wet sumps heavily and there doesn't seem to be much pressure if you put your finger over the hole in the return pipe in the tank. I'll investigate. Do you have a preference regarding suppliers? Thanks once again. Al.

Re: Valve Gear Lubrication

Posted by robert_tuck at October 11. 2017

There has been articles on how to overhaul the pump , It won't make it new but will get 80% better, have to renew timing cover gasket and pump cone rubber seal.  There are a few pitfalls to avoid so read up ,not difficult to do.

Re: Valve Gear Lubrication

Posted by jonathan_newton at October 11. 2017

Al; are you saying your valve gear is dry? or your test showed NO oil issuing from the  pipework?

If your valve gear is wet and no sign of stiffness, rest easy.  it's a right hit and miss affair and when the machine is travelling at various rev ranges it spits enough in there to keep it right for road use in a temperate environment.

 

By all means sort the pump, but don't be too alarmed unless you see a clear case of   lack of lube in the rocker area.

 

Cheers

J

Re: Valve Gear Lubrication

Posted by Alaster Bentley at October 11. 2017

Dear Jonathan,

Thanks for your input. When I first used the Norton, I took it on a shortish run down to Oxford, from where I live near Bicester, to do a charity event. It was a nice day out, but a mistake really because the traffic was terrible and I decided to switch off every time we were stationary for more than a minute or so. On the way home, I lost the R/H pot intermittently, so had a check when I returned home. The engine has had a total rebuild with new gaskets etc. so I checked the valve clearances having checked the cylinder head fasteners. That is when I found that the head was as dry as a ***'* chuff! As all is well with the carb and the ignition, I can only assume that the lack of cooling oil flow around the head is upsetting things. Probably bollocks, but Anyhow, I need to get some oil up to the top end, so the next step will be to check the seals and the pump. Today, I spoke to a guy called Simon who was very helpful at Andover Norton, but he wasn't sure if there should be a gasket behind the pump. Do you know if there should be? It is not on the parts manual. I have been told of Mick Hemmings' expertise and vast knowledge, but he is currently unavailable.

Many thanks!

Re: Valve Gear Lubrication

Posted by robert_tuck at October 12. 2017

A gasket was not fitted as standard but may help, would be good to check the mating surfaces are flat and not pulled up around studs. It may be that someone has drilled out the return union on the tank which should provide a restriction to push oil up to the head.I have fitted a brass jet there which I progessively drilled bigger till i got the flow I wanted. The tank union can be removed without draining the tank ,very helpfull!.The Jubilee size return I found to be too small sending too much oil up to the head and not allowing enough oil back to the tank.The standard head oilways appear to allow too much bias to the inlets at the expence of the exhausts ,seems to me should be the other way round.Too much oil is bad too as it can lead to burnt valve seats .No oil at all could lead to a stuck valve and power loss.

Re: Valve Gear Lubrication

Posted by Kevin Bell at October 12. 2017

Previously Alaster Bentley wrote:

Dear Jonathan,

Thanks for your input. When I first used the Norton, I took it on a shortish run down to Oxford, from where I live near Bicester, to do a charity event. It was a nice day out, but a mistake really because the traffic was terrible and I decided to switch off every time we were stationary for more than a minute or so. On the way home, I lost the R/H pot intermittently, so had a check when I returned home. The engine has had a total rebuild with new gaskets etc. so I checked the valve clearances having checked the cylinder head fasteners. That is when I found that the head was as dry as a ***'* chuff! As all is well with the carb and the ignition, I can only assume that the lack of cooling oil flow around the head is upsetting things. Probably bollocks, but Anyhow, I need to get some oil up to the top end, so the next step will be to check the seals and the pump. Today, I spoke to a guy called Simon who was very helpful at Andover Norton, but he wasn't sure if there should be a gasket behind the pump. Do you know if there should be? It is not on the parts manual. I have been told of Mick Hemmings' expertise and vast knowledge, but he is currently unavailable.

Many thanks!

Andover Norton have been my 'go to' guys during the long and painful overhaul of my 650SS and I have always found Simon to be very helpful too. I replaced the oil pump on mine and fitted a gasket, part number 06.2447 - a whole 25p.

Hope this helps,

 

Kevin

Re: Valve Gear Lubrication

Posted by Alaster Bentley at October 12. 2017

Dear Kevin, Sorry that the overhaul of your Norton has been a tough one.

I bought mine as a shiny new restoration, but it seems, with plenty of niggles where one or two corners have been cut!

I'd like to fit a new pump, but it really might not be necessary. Pity they are not 25p, like the gasket! Is your bike on the road yet?

Best wishes, Al.

Re: Valve Gear Lubrication

Posted by Alaster Bentley at October 12. 2017

Previously robert_tuck wrote:

A gasket was not fitted as standard but may help, would be good to check the mating surfaces are flat and not pulled up around studs. It may be that someone has drilled out the return union on the tank which should provide a restriction to push oil up to the head.I have fitted a brass jet there which I progessively drilled bigger till i got the flow I wanted. The tank union can be removed without draining the tank ,very helpfull!.The Jubilee size return I found to be too small sending too much oil up to the head and not allowing enough oil back to the tank.The standard head oilways appear to allow too much bias to the inlets at the expence of the exhausts ,seems to me should be the other way round.Too much oil is bad too as it can lead to burnt valve seats .No oil at all could lead to a stuck valve and power loss.

Thanks, Robert. Sorry to sound thick, but I'm a bit baffled by what you mean by the return union. I have an oil tank, A threaded pipe with a small hole in it for oil distribution to the pipe that goes to the head. That pipe, which has a banjo soldered to it and that's it, return side. Also, am I missing something, because I'm not sure what would prevent the oil from pouring out if I dismantled the pipework without draining the tank. It's one of those situations where a picture is worth a thousand words! Many thanks for your help. It's a very interesting post, particularly about the bias.

Re: Valve Gear Lubrication

Posted by Kevin Bell at October 12. 2017

Previously Alaster Bentley wrote:

Dear Kevin, Sorry that the overhaul of your Norton has been a tough one.

I bought mine as a shiny new restoration, but it seems, with plenty of niggles where one or two corners have been cut!

I'd like to fit a new pump, but it really might not be necessary. Pity they are not 25p, like the gasket! Is your bike on the road yet?

Best wishes, Al.

Hear, hear! It was NEARLY on the road, Al. Took it in for an MoT - passed no problem, but on the way home, the clutch pushrod adjuster worked loose and fell into the primary chaincase. Also, the engine, which had been running as sweet as anything, started misfiring. Luckily I wasn't too far from home so I could get back for some tools and get the better half to run me back in the car. Refitted the pushrod adjuster and just suffered the misfire on the way home. The bike had a single carb conversion and I've gone back to the twin carbs so I'm still messing around with jetting. Hopefully it won't be too much longer! :)

Kevin

Re: Valve Gear Lubrication

Posted by robert_tuck at October 12. 2017

The  tank return  fitting should screw into the tank through the banjo and into  the internal tank pipe which goes up to the top of the tank so the tank contents should not be able to drain out through the return system.I fitted a brass jet into the top of the fitting  after tapping a thread in it.As the jet is smaller than the orriginal bore it forces more oil up the banjo. I just kept drilling the brass jet bigger till I was happy with the flow to the head If I overdid the drilling I would have just soldered it up and started again!. In the process I did get overoiling to the head  with a smokey exhaust and leaks from the rocker end plates. I expect I will finish up with a return bore about 2 or 3 mm smaller than std. The usual mod uses a tank return fitting from a Jubilee which is too small bore for my bike ,sending too much oil to the head.

Re: Valve Gear Lubrication

Posted by Alaster Bentley at October 13. 2017

Previously Kevin Bell wrote:

Previously Alaster Bentley wrote:

Dear Kevin, Sorry that the overhaul of your Norton has been a tough one.

I bought mine as a shiny new restoration, but it seems, with plenty of niggles where one or two corners have been cut!

I'd like to fit a new pump, but it really might not be necessary. Pity they are not 25p, like the gasket! Is your bike on the road yet?

Best wishes, Al.

Hear, hear! It was NEARLY on the road, Al. Took it in for an MoT - passed no problem, but on the way home, the clutch pushrod adjuster worked loose and fell into the primary chaincase. Also, the engine, which had been running as sweet as anything, started misfiring. Luckily I wasn't too far from home so I could get back for some tools and get the better half to run me back in the car. Refitted the pushrod adjuster and just suffered the misfire on the way home. The bike had a single carb conversion and I've gone back to the twin carbs so I'm still messing around with jetting. Hopefully it won't be too much longer! :)

Kevin

Hi! That sounds absolutely maddening. Isn't it frustrating when you spend oceans of time and money on the bikes and cars and there are always dozens of niggles, some simple and others really complicated and expensive! Good luck with getting your machine just-so. I think that to get my Dommi to the point where I'll be happy with it, I need a new oil pump and Monobloc. I suspect that the carb is knackered and weakening the mixture. Burlen have one with all the right specs on back-order for me. The front stopper is rubbish too, so that needs looking at as a matter of urgency!

Al Bentley.

Re: Valve Gear Lubrication

Posted by robert_tuck at October 13. 2017

Its all down to your attitude, I see these small bike problems as an involving long term jigsaw puzzle that is a welcome distraction from the daily cares and woes. I have access to several classic bikes so one is usually working, I can drift off to sleep mulling over some minor issue that I will probably solve in the subconcious brain, and its not that critical if I don't.

Re: Valve Gear Lubrication

Posted by Alaster Bentley at October 13. 2017

Previously robert_tuck wrote:

Its all down to your attitude, I see these small bike problems as an involving long term jigsaw puzzle that is a welcome distraction from the daily cares and woes. I have access to several classic bikes so one is usually working, I can drift off to sleep mulling over some minor issue that I will probably solve in the subconcious brain, and its not that critical if I don't.

Robert, thanks for the messages and the one earlier, describing the tank union. I understand completely now and am grateful for the input.

I must say that I have a very long fuse indeed having worked on many machines over the years and am passionate about all sorts of mechanical engineering. There are times though, when things really do drive you to distraction, particularly where large sums of money are concerned, having already shelled out a fortune on a rebuild. As you say, it's what we do and that is the consequence sometimes. Motoring brings much joy and much sadness!

Regards, Al.

Attachments

Re: Valve Gear Lubrication

Posted by robert_tuck at October 13. 2017

Hi Al , when I said your attitude I did not mean YOUR attitude, I was generalising !, or talking about myself.  Getting the oil supply sorted is important ,if you read my other post the lack of oil to the exhaust rockers has given me another job.

Re: Valve Gear Lubrication

Posted by Alaster Bentley at October 13. 2017

Previously robert_tuck wrote:

Hi Al , when I said your attitude I did not mean YOUR attitude, I was generalising !, or talking about myself.  Getting the oil supply sorted is important ,if you read my other post the lack of oil to the exhaust rockers has given me another job.

Hi Robert My next task is to actually find the time to get this niggle sorted successfully. I'll let you know what things look like when I have unveiled the workings in the timing cover! Thanks for all the advice. Al.

 

 

Re: Valve Gear Lubrication

Posted by jonathan_newton at October 13. 2017

Previously Alaster Bentley wrote:

Previously robert_tuck wrote:

Hi Al , when I said your attitude I did not mean YOUR attitude, I was generalising !, or talking about myself.  Getting the oil supply sorted is important ,if you read my other post the lack of oil to the exhaust rockers has given me another job.

Hi Robert My next task is to actually find the time to get this niggle sorted successfully. I'll let you know what things look like when I have unveiled the workings in the timing cover! Thanks for all the advice. Al.

 

Its not uncommon for fresh restorations to be problematic Al.  The restorers skill tends to be in presentation rather than rideability.  I have a machine in now that  looked a picture 6 miles ago.

By that time the exhaust fell, off the primary spilt its contents, the levers rotated away from you and there with no throttle stops in the carbs.  These guys have  some great eye for detail, but rarely run them up to full speed.  Run it out gently and go through a recommissioning program, after all it was in a myriad bits and reassembled by an enthusiast not a production line.  Some things will not be right but that is part of the fun; setting it up to run correctly and suit your needs.

 

Happy days!

 

Jon

Re: Valve Gear Lubrication

Posted by Alaster Bentley at October 13. 2017

Previously jonathan_newton wrote:

Previously Alaster Bentley wrote:

Previously robert_tuck wrote:

Hi Al , when I said your attitude I did not mean YOUR attitude, I was generalising !, or talking about myself.  Getting the oil supply sorted is important ,if you read my other post the lack of oil to the exhaust rockers has given me another job.

Hi Robert My next task is to actually find the time to get this niggle sorted successfully. I'll let you know what things look like when I have unveiled the workings in the timing cover! Thanks for all the advice. Al.

 

Its not uncommon for fresh restorations to be problematic Al.  The restorers skill tends to be in presentation rather than rideability.  I have a machine in now that  looked a picture 6 miles ago.

By that time the exhaust fell, off the primary spilt its contents, the levers rotated away from you and there with no throttle stops in the carbs.  These guys have  some great eye for detail, but rarely run them up to full speed.  Run it out gently and go through a recommissioning program, after all it was in a myriad bits and reassembled by an enthusiast not a production line.  Some things will not be right but that is part of the fun; setting it up to run correctly and suit your needs.

 

Happy days!

 

Jon

Hi! Been there and got the tee-shirt, Jon! Actually, my other rebuilds are taking me so long to finish due to work, that I thought I'd buy something that is on the road to enjoy in the dying days of our Indian Summer. It's ironic then, that I'm taking this one apart too, now! Never mind. As you say, it's all part of the fun. Enjoy your Norton, Jon. Cheers! Al B.

Re: Valve Gear Lubrication

Posted by anna jeannette Dixon at October 13. 2017

Hello, Members  I ever fit oil pump gaskets  has some gasket cover the oil hole in the crankcase timing side  I flat off the oil pump surface first by checking with engineers blue, then flating off on 8mm plate glass  with valve paste with the oil pump body stripped of its parts,  flat of the sides needed  I am looking for a small type gear cutter so  I can make gears for oil pumps and other small Norton parts,  and for direct oil pipe to the rocker feed, , you can do this by removing the blanking bolt on the timing cover below the pressure realise valve, and fitting a banjo and 1/4 inch copper pipe from there.with a banjo bolt with holes in it will be needed,  now have fun 

      yours   anna j

Re: Valve Gear Lubrication

Posted by Alaster Bentley at October 14. 2017

Previously anna jeannette Dixon wrote:

Hello, Members  I ever fit oil pump gaskets  has some gasket cover the oil hole in the crankcase timing side  I flat off the oil pump surface first by checking with engineers blue, then flating off on 8mm plate glass  with valve paste with the oil pump body stripped of its parts,  flat of the sides needed  I am looking for a small type gear cutter so  I can make gears for oil pumps and other small Norton parts,  and for direct oil pipe to the rocker feed, , you can do this by removing the blanking bolt on the timing cover below the pressure realise valve, and fitting a banjo and 1/4 inch copper pipe from there.with a banjo bolt with holes in it will be needed,  now have fun

yours   anna j

Dear Anna,

Thanks for this, but can you just clarify the first part of your post? Thank you, Al.

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