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New A.N.Oil Pumps VERDICT.

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New A.N.Oil Pumps VERDICT.

Posted by les_howard at May 05. 2017

Fed up with excessive wet sumping and after reading recommendations on the Forum that they are so good, I decided to splash out and buy a new “Andover Norton” oil pump. I chose to buy it from RGM as they are priced the same and I needed other parts from them at the same time. Well the first one had to be sent back as it was initially impossible to turn and when I did get it turning it had a single tight spot remaining....not good methinks so sent it back. It was duly replaced with another one and this time it turned easily and to my mind possibly too easy!... On my old pump's removal, I was struck on how good this self refurbed pump actually was and doing a finger block test on the output it actually seemed to pump harder than the new one. Then I did a static drain-through test and low and behold I could see oil beginning to drain out of the feed nozzle in just a few seconds. Oh dear, I thought, I was hoping for an improvement here!

Now cut to the chase. How does it perform? Well I reckon the scavenge side does work that much better with a very high flow rate and instant priming but sadly the drain through is definitely no better. Now using fresh 40 SAE straight oil this time instead of my 20W-50 oil I was hoping for a really big improvement but sadly and annoyingly I seem to have wasted my money. I would go on to say I would have had a better improvement by leaving in the old pump and switching to the thicker oil.

I’m posting this message to dispel the gossip that these wonderful new pumps built with precision and state of the art machinery are better than the originals. Sorry but they ARE NOT!   What’s wrong with them? Well in my opinion the clearance between the gear-teeth and the casing is too wide.* This is the main through route for oil drainage whereas other routes through the contacting gears is really minimal as the free undriven gear is forced by oil gravity to be in firm contact with its neighbouring tooth and thus blocks the flow pretty well. Assuming side clearance on the gears to have been ground down to zero (if done with precision!) this only leaves the outer clearance which I believe could be manufactured with today’s technology to have virtually rubbing clearance which before being sold could be bench run in to have a PERFECT FIT noting that once run in no further wear will take place and thus leave the gear to body clearances at a perfect zero or just a micron of clearance.

Conclusion...Don’t believe all you read about these pumps and unless your pump is really knackered you won’t get any improvement from what you already have so don’t waste your money....Les

*This can be observed in the following hand test. Hold the pump with the feed side outlet downwards and squirt in oil into the feed side input hole. Spin the pump and fully fill with fresh oil then block the feed outlet with the thumb firmly pushed onto it. Continue to turn the pump with no extra oil being dropped in. This will be difficult and should unquestionably force the finger away and eventually empty the pump of oil. However when I carried out this test, air bubbles are seen being blown back out of the oil input hole taking with it spurts of oil. Obviously with no extra oil added air is drawn into the gears but oil should not be seen squirting BACK OUT of the input side. This test reveals that there is too much clearance on the periphery of the gears teeth....IMHO

Re: New A.N.Oil Pumps VERDICT.

Posted by john_holmes at May 05. 2017

I am in the middle of applying an improved AMR type anti sump scheme.

1. Machine the timing outer cover so a ball and spring can be fitted that when the engine is off blocks off the pump outlet. Just waiting for some EPDM 1/4" balls to finish this bit off, based on my current findings from anti sump valves in the return line working best with a rubber seat and steel ball a EPDM ball and steel seat should work just as well.

2. X ring seals fitted to machined grooves in the oil pump so oil cannot pass from the feed side to the return side internally within the pump along the shafts to then fill up the sump.

I have been reconditioning gear oil pumps for 25 years so very much had my doubts on the A N ones being any better than a properly DIY reconed pump, thanks for confirming.

Only issue to fixing the wet sumping is that it is a gauge of when your pump needs a recon, filling the sump in a couple of months says its ok, couple of weeks and you need to act. So without this gauge it just has to be added to routine maintenance eg every 15k to 20k miles.

Re: New A.N.Oil Pumps VERDICT.

Posted by john_holmes at May 05. 2017

This forum software needs updating, I tried to post a comment and was told it had not gone through, so I post a second time to find it actually had been posted the first time after all.

Re: New A.N.Oil Pumps VERDICT.

Posted by richard_payne at May 05. 2017

Well, I've posted on here that an Andover pump has given me better results than I've had with the previous four or five new pumps (including a Nourish) and it worked on a friend's 16H as well so the use of the term 'gossip' seems a little unfair.

Perhaps they keep a special batch of pumps to give the grumpy customers something to complain about ?

Re: New A.N.Oil Pumps VERDICT.

Posted by les_howard at May 05. 2017

Richard Payne insults:

"Perhaps they keep a special batch of pumps to give the grumpy customers something to complain about ?"

Totally uncalled for you TWAT!.....Les

Re: New A.N.Oil Pumps VERDICT.

Posted by ian_cordes at May 05. 2017

Previously les_howard wrote:

Richard Payne insults:

"Perhaps they keep a special batch of pumps to give the grumpy customers something to complain about ?"

Totally uncalled for you TWAT!.....Les

 

And so was that....

Re: New A.N.Oil Pumps VERDICT.

Posted by les_howard at May 06. 2017

No Way Mr Cordes..... Does someone have to include an insult just to back up what they are saying? Why didn't Mr Payne just write up his message with the experience and details he had without needing to add the final nasty comment?,  I am as ever always interested in any ones findings as it generally proves to be useful but as said, why does someone need to or even have the right to add a cynical nasty and unjust insult?Please tell me why and then tell me Mr Cordes why did you not censure Mr Paynes totally unnecessary final remark?...Stop being so stupidly PC. and stand up for the victim and not the assailant....Les

Re: New A.N.Oil Pumps VERDICT.

Posted by Neil Wyatt at May 06. 2017

Les, I value what both you and Richard have to say on this forum

When I read Richard's comment I just thought it a bit of a laugh but clearly you didn't see it that way, reading your reply. I understand that too.

I'd rather keep my wet sumping than any fall out between owners that know their stuff. That would be a big loss.

Hope we can forget this and move on, after all it's the Northern riding season now, time to enjoy.

7 months early for this but: 'Peace on Earth, good will to all men.' (& Anna)

Re: New A.N.Oil Pumps VERDICT.

Posted by ian_cordes at May 06. 2017

Grumpy customer? Call that an insult? Dear oh dear, you are a sensitive fellow! It sounded like a joke to me, as it did to Neil. Maybe it was the time of night which affected your judgement when you made your uncalled for, offensive and disproportionate response. Had you slept on it, I suspect your response would have been different this morning, although your answer to that is predictable. You threw the first insult by your dismissal of other contributors findings on the subject as gossip, in the face of your clearly far superior opinion.  Now you are lashing out with your insults, angry that you have been challenged, calling me stupid. Where will this stop? You must stop this right now, and temper your behaviour. This is no place for your vitriol.

Time for our webmaster to close this thread, with luck.

Re: New A.N.Oil Pumps VERDICT.

Posted by les_howard at May 06. 2017

Mr Cordes. You're just covering the fact and creating a smoke screen that you made a mistake and allowed someone to get away with an unnecessary personal abuse which is quite against the spirit of this Forum. I quite rightly reacted to his stupidy and bad manners and not so much as the words he chose. Tell me where on my original message I was grumpy, I simply reported the findings of two new pumps of Andover Norton origin hopefully serving the interest of fellow NOC members. My use of the word "gossip" was not meant as any belittling, it was perhaps badly chosen, but it is obvious I meant peoples messages written on this Forum that is not an insult. As for not being able to accept a challenge that is also nonsense I ALWAYS welcome other peoples findings in fact if a dozen members wrote that their pump was utterly perfect I would have the perfect case to return my 2nd version back for another replacement. I just accurately wrote up my findings, no grumpiness, no assumptions all in the spirit of helping others which I have always done my best to achieve within this Forum and by the way it will be up to the Webmaster to close this thread, not some anti Les Howard campaigner....Les

Re: New A.N.Oil Pumps VERDICT.

Posted by ian_cordes at May 06. 2017

I rest my case!

Re: New A.N.Oil Pumps VERDICT.

Posted by les_howard at May 06. 2017

Previously john_holmes wrote:

I am in the middle of applying an improved AMR type anti sump scheme.

1. Machine the timing outer cover so a ball and spring can be fitted that when the engine is off blocks off the pump outlet. Just waiting for some EPDM 1/4" balls to finish this bit off, based on my current findings from anti sump valves in the return line working best with a rubber seat and steel ball a EPDM ball and steel seat should work just as well.

2. X ring seals fitted to machined grooves in the oil pump so oil cannot pass from the feed side to the return side internally within the pump along the shafts to then fill up the sump.

I have been reconditioning gear oil pumps for 25 years so very much had my doubts on the A N ones being any better than a properly DIY reconed pump, thanks for confirming.

Only issue to fixing the wet sumping is that it is a gauge of when your pump needs a recon, filling the sump in a couple of months says its ok, couple of weeks and you need to act. So without this gauge it just has to be added to routine maintenance eg every 15k to 20k miles.

Thanks John for your reply...sorry for the delay in getting back to you, there was a slight distraction. Hopefully you will be able to show the finished anti sumping mod here when finished....Cheers....Les

Re: New A.N.Oil Pumps VERDICT.

Posted by Barry Carson. at May 06. 2017

i am typing this from up the loft hiding under the insulation until things settle. thanks for the info with regards to the oil pump Les. you would think there would be some sort of quality control with such an important component.

 

Barry

Re: New A.N.Oil Pumps VERDICT.

Posted by graham_leblond at May 06. 2017

Hey guys stop all the in fighting between yourselves.  Remember this type of behaviour is supposed to be addressed to us 961 owners. :)

Re: New A.N.Oil Pumps VERDICT.

Posted by richard_payne at May 06. 2017

Good Grief ! I quite agree with Barry's comment and would actually have hoped that the oil pumps would (at least briefly) have been put on a test rig, although even with inaccuracies they probably deliver sufficient pressure.

I do stand by my initial impression that the original poster was being unfairly dismissive of those lesser-qualified beings who had reported positively on their experience with the pumps, going back some years. Could it be that there is a quality control problem with recent production ? I sincerely hope not, but regardless it does not cause previous, honestly reported information to become 'gossip'.

Unfortunately, the diatribe against AN also become one against fellow members who had dared to suggest the contrary to this as-yet unreported information.

I actually thought that a humorous aside was the best way of dealing with that. If someone calls me a miserable beggar on a forum it's simply a reflection of everyday life...but then I learned to deal with that sort of thing in the primary school...probably the first time that a teacher referred to me as 'Payne-in-the-arse' actually.

Re: New A.N.Oil Pumps VERDICT.

Posted by Neil Wyatt at May 06. 2017

Best way, Richard. I only once spit the dummy out when someone on here called me a coward. Nothing could be further from the truth. Hope we can continue to have discussions with humour here and there without the grief.

Talking of discussions, when is someone going to discuss tin primary chain case inners?

Re: New A.N.Oil Pumps VERDICT.

Posted by anna jeannette Dixon at May 06. 2017
Previously les_howard wrote:

No Way Mr Cordes..... Does someone have to include an insult just to back up what they are saying? Why didn't Mr Payne just write up his message with the experience and details he had without needing to add the final nasty comment?,  I am as ever always interested in any ones findings as it generally proves to be useful but as said, why does someone need to or even have the right to add a cynical nasty and unjust insult?Please tell me why and then tell me Mr Cordes why did you not censure Mr Paynes totally unnecessary final remark?...Stop being so stupidly PC. and stand up for the victim and not the assailant....Les

HELLO GUYS  ANNA HERE  well I think LES was telling things has he found them to be  And I know the guys at RGM motors and their not in the habit of sending out duff oil pumps  If you have any problems with their item they happy to help out,   and  yes oil wet sumping is a big problem and very annoying   BUT  there are some things you have to understand about Norton oil pumps first  ,  number 1  is there  Not a dry sump  oil pump when the engine is  motionless and standing around for weeks or months  you get oil draining back into the  crankcase  if you lost all your oil out of the tank  then you know the oil pump need sorting  on heavy twins there are two type of oil pumps  the 3 Start  was good up to 1964 even for the Atlas  750  then  came the upgrade to the 6 start oil pump this run at double the speed   of the old one, and number 2  the oil pump shaft rubbers wear  out in time and the end plate   wears being brass  and Now Number 3  you need about a half pint of oil in the crankcases  so the oil pump can feed from this on START UP,    A dry sump crankcases are no good 
has the oil pump will only be pumping air  and your large end bearings  are not getting pressurized oil  for well over 45 seconds to one minute   now this is doing damage  your large end bearings   so now we have a problem that has not really been  solved has yet   draining the  sump will be just as  good has a tap or ball valve  the answer could be a royal Enfield one  by fitting a read valve at the base of the rear of the crankcases  this will allow more oil to blown out has you kick over the engine with the plugs out  before start up the excess oil can be blown back your  oil tank  and oil will be picked up with the pump at the same time  well that's one idea   but it's now up to you to come up with others   its a age old adage  something we have to live with if you want a  Norton    have fun  your anna j   

Re: New A.N.Oil Pumps VERDICT.

Posted by david_evans at May 06. 2017

Anna, what "oil pump shaft rubbers" are we talking about here? Your statement that the oil will only be pumping air is incorrect. Provided you have oil in the tank the feed side of the pump is primed and the "large ends" will be fed. The scavenge side of the pump may not have much to do if you have just drained the crankcases but on any engine just shut down, residual oil will drain from the inside surfaces and be there to prime the scavenge side of the pump. ( plus whatever drains through the pump during wets sumping) I have a theory that a chunk of oil hides in the timing case and only shows itself on shutdown by creeping through the timing side main bearing past the washer and into the crankcases.

I have just taken an oil pump apart and the gears vary in diameter by 0.004" so measuring the bores the clearance varies by between 0.002" and 0.006". Can someone post a picture of the O ring mod so I can consider doing it myself? thanks.

Re: New A.N.Oil Pumps VERDICT.

Posted by john_holmes at May 07. 2017

These are my original notes on the oil pump mod.

That leaves the internal leak inside the oil pump, you dismantle the pump and then take the body and on the feed side open out the two 3/8" holes to 1/2" for a depth of .093 to .098. This is for the 3/8" ID 1/16" Cross section 1/2" OD rings. I use quad rings in this position Model: QR-012 3/8"ID X 1/2"OD X 1/16"CS as it is a marginal application and a proper garter seal would be best but space is limited and a garter seal would compromise the gear teeth seal and reduce pressure made.

And there is a pic here using O rings

http://i888.photobucket.com/albums/ac84/Nancydesigns/Pete/Norton/GEDC1061.jpg

The .093 to .098 depth is for when the diameter of the hole is to the correct formula for O ring crush which is slightly smaller than a 1/2" milling cutter makes so I instead went for 0.090 to compensate and this works.

Note that the space in the O ring groove must always be greater that the O ring volume.

X rings give you 4 sealing surfaces against 2 of a round O ring.


Re: New A.N.Oil Pumps VERDICT.

Posted by anna jeannette Dixon at May 08. 2017
Previously david_evans wrote:

Anna, what "oil pump shaft rubbers" are we talking about here? Your statement that the oil will only be pumping air is incorrect. Provided you have oil in the tank the feed side of the pump is primed and the "large ends" will be fed. The scavenge side of the pump may not have much to do if you have just drained the crankcases but on any engine just shut down, residual oil will drain from the inside surfaces and be there to prime the scavenge side of the pump. ( plus whatever drains through the pump during wets sumping) I have a theory that a chunk of oil hides in the timing case and only shows itself on shutdown by creeping through the timing side main bearing past the washer and into the crankcases.

I have just taken an oil pump apart and the gears vary in diameter by 0.004" so measuring the bores the clearance varies by between 0.002" and 0.006". Can someone post a picture of the O ring mod so I can consider doing it myself? thanks.

 

  Hello guys  I do not want to be proven wrong or right  I want you guys to talk about this problem  that age old and what the solution are  other  than TAPS ball valve and the like   Norton,s them self did not even get around to solving this  problem  So it's up to us OWNERS to Do something we all agree on  So guys do not try to take verbal  vengeance on each other has this will not get us anywhere  Wet Sumping is an old problem that's not been Solved  has yet  I think a reed valve fitted in the lower rear of the Crankcase may just help things  I have seen a kit that fits the Commando engine  this acts has a presser release valve   and the oil is then redirected back  to  the oil tank via a breather  pipe  and a small drain nut seems to be a good idea the other thing is knowing how much oil is in the crankcases after the bike has been stud for some time  some modern bikes have an oil level widow  anyway this something we can talk on for years  so get your thinking caps on and  see want everyone comes up with   even if its right or wrong or a daft idea  the feedback would be just great     have fun   yours  anna j 

Re: New A.N.Oil Pumps VERDICT.

Posted by les_howard at May 08. 2017

Hi John, David and Anna. Thanks very much for the replies here. Regarding the fitting of O rings on the shaft to prevent through leakage from the feed side through to the scavenge side and then down to the sump......The way I'm visualising it is that if the main body and end plates has been accurately ground flat to leave zero clearance between the sides of each gear wheel (4 off) there is a complete blockage of the oil route anyway?. I don't have a dismantled pump to hand but perhaps I'm overlooking something? ....Les

Re: New A.N.Oil Pumps VERDICT.

Posted by anna jeannette Dixon at May 08. 2017
Previously les_howard wrote:

Hi John, David and Anna. Thanks very much for the replies here. Regarding the fitting of O rings on the shaft to prevent through leakage from the feed side through to the scavenge side and then down to the sump......The way I'm visualising it is that if the main body and end plates has been accurately ground flat to leave zero clearance between the sides of each gear wheel (4 off) there is a complete blockage of the oil route anyway?. I don't have a dismantled pump to hand but perhaps I'm overlooking something? ....Les

 Hello Les   it's these small oilways that drain oil away,  gets blocked in the one that runs down the back of the cylinder head and barrel  gets blocked at the elbow in the crankcase it comes out into  the timing side just above the timing chain you see a small hole there  this drain is for excess oil  from the inlet side rockers  has the excess oil for the exhaust side runs down the  push rod tunnel to feed the cam followers  and then back into the crankcases  to be picked up by the scavenge side of the oil pump  .but you may already know this  ,  yours anna j  

Re: New A.N.Oil Pumps VERDICT.

Posted by john_holmes at May 08. 2017

Les

"The way I'm visualising it is that if the main body and end plates has been accurately ground flat to leave zero clearance between the sides of each gear wheel (4 off) there is a complete blockage of the oil route anyway?"

If there is zero clearance then the pump will not turn, you need a clearance even if its 0.0005 to allow the pump to spin, if its too stiff you wear the drive gears out or even break them. Even with the smallest clearance that ideal state does not last for long, I deliberately recon mine a bit tight and then spin them slowly on my lathe for 15 mins fed with oil and they loosen up enough to fit. Even a typical auto oil filter only works down to 30 microns, so the oil collects fine particles that wear out the pump as you ride. So you are best assuming your pump will leak and plan accordingly.

Re: New A.N.Oil Pumps VERDICT.

Posted by Neil Wyatt at May 08. 2017

Wet sumping is a problem with all my Norton's except for my slimline Model 50. I bought The rebuilt engine from a gentleman called John Hill from Stafford in 1992. Never had it apart so what ever he did he did it right. After nearly a year of storage there was still less than a cup full of oil in the sump.(Tea cup)

On the other hand, I have a Dominator oil pump boxed up and oiled with a hand written note from the gentleman who serviced it. His name: John Hudson. I wonder if there is a secret within that pump? Pump never used since the service by John.

Of course, back in the day there was no problem as the bikes were started most days and used rather than stored. Starting your Norton's more often is one answer but not getting them hot enough creates other issues!

Re: New A.N.Oil Pumps VERDICT.

Posted by les_howard at May 08. 2017

Thanks again Anna, John & Neil.

Hi John,. It's surprising the 1/2 thou clearance is enough to pass much oil but it all adds up along with the peripheral clearances on the gear tips. I would love to see an experiment where various Norton pumps new, old and renovated were set up on a rig where pressurised paraffin or diesel oil was forced into the feed side inlet for a timed period and the escaping fluid collected and measured.** The pumps of course would not be driven but the low viscosity fluids used would allow a greater leakage over a fairly short timescale and hence a better and faster comparison of just how effective each pump was at blocking the drainage. The results would still represent the same comparison for thicker normal engine oil grades...Would make a nice YouTube video I reckon.

** Note that the set up should leave the scavenge-side holes open too as this will show the amounts of oil travelling through the pump spindles into the scavenge side of the pump. The leakage should be collected at the same time as the feed side drain through to get a total. Obviously one of the pumps should include the O ring modded version.

Hi Neil, interesting, I guess the only other thing that could hold back the oil would have been the big end clearance being dead tight, but once again if it was that tight it would be on the verge of seizing as soon as it turned by smearing the white metal into the oil way drillings, so he must have got the pump nearly perfect.

Back to the AN pump...I'm now using 50 weight oil which slows up the drain down just a bit more, but I guess there is more oil being blown off by the relief valve than going through the big ends when cold, but this shouldn't cause a problem though. ...Anyway, I'll have to leave this thread now as I've got so much work elsewhere to do ...tons of gardening work must be done....Cheers all....Les

Re: New A.N.Oil Pumps VERDICT.

Posted by Neil Wyatt at May 08. 2017

I forgot to say that I use 40 SAE in my singles, topping up as necessary with a bit of SAE 30 at the back end, when a bit cooler.

That said, wet sumping was no worse on my Mk3 Commando when I changed from SAE 40 to 20-50.

Re: New A.N.Oil Pumps VERDICT.

Posted by les_howard at June 03. 2017

Bringing this older thread back to life. I noticed the interesting write up regarding the manufacture of Norton Pumps by the AMC factory. Note that it appears the clearance of the gear teeth tips to the body was, as suggested by me, virtually RUBBING..This is why an original well made Norton pump will pass very little oil back to the sump via the feed side. Unfortunately making the pump with too wide a clearance is never going to produce the same seal....Read the attachment:

Attachments

Re: New A.N.Oil Pumps VERDICT.

Posted by les_howard at June 03. 2017

Deleted this entry due to duplication.....Les

Attachments

Re: New A.N.Oil Pumps VERDICT.

Posted by Julian Wells at June 03. 2017

Les, do you have the source for this clipping?

 

Previously les_howard wrote:

Bringing this older thread back to life. I noticed the interesting write up regarding the manufacture of Norton Pumps by the AMC factory. Note that it appears the clearance of the gear teeth tips to the body was, as suggested by me, virtually RUBBING..This is why an original well made Norton pump will pass very little oil back to the sump via the feed side. Unfortunately making the pump with too wide a clearance is never going to produce the same seal....Read the attachment:

Re: New A.N.Oil Pumps VERDICT.

Posted by steve_adkins at June 04. 2017

Greetings,

Not wishing to "Hijack" Les but have a look here:

http://www.workingatamc.london/images/links/article_working_for_amc.pdf

Rgds Steve

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