Where are the Domiracers now???

Previously wrote:

   Well Nigel, Heinz Kegler did specifically state 1.6", but after 1963 all those special parts were either used up or blown sky-high so it has been a long time since anyone has seen any around here. Kegler said the rods that came with the race bikes were special to fit the big crank journal, but they were still aluminum and did not hold up well to the abuse of the American riders and tracks.

    Kegler then used the strong 88ss style cranks(small sludge trap) along with steel Carrillo rods, which he helped develop by sending Carrillo some factory drawings to work with, and also they had Mahle make forged copies of Hepolite pistons. This combination worked very well as despite running in some long fast races such as Daytona different years and 6th in the 67'Canadian GP, they never broke another crank in the classic era.                                                                                                                                                                                 It was only much later, during a vintage event in the early 80's that Kegler finally had a rod journal crack all the way through, but the steel Carrillo rod held the crank together until he shut the engine down and caused no other damage!

 

     Yes, the 88ss cranks did have "88SS" stamped right into the throws, and the cylinders also had SS stamped into the top deck, at least on the two 1962 88ss bikes I have here.

 Kegler had tested his bike to 9000 rpm, but in competition he kept the revs down between 7500 - 8000 so things would live longer. 

     The 1964 Daytona racers which Paul Dunstall built from 88ss roadsters for the race that year had very standard engines with stock cams, cranks, rods and pistons, the cylinders were milled down a bit to raise compression, the heads were supposedly flowed and handed Amal Gps and megaphone exhausts were put on the bikes. They made 52 hp on the dyno at the crank and two finished well in the 200 miler, and two finished the 100 mile race with one winning. Dunstall had his own special bike entered in the Daytona 200 also that year and it dropped out early! I just received news that one of these 1964 Daytona racers has made it's way back home to the U.K. and is going to be carefully put back into running condition....

       Your foresight about the large-journal 500 crank being worth preserving was probably a rare thing back then when they were "just old racing parts". It gives a hint about the special feeling that those involved with Norton motorcycles have for them, they were much more than appliances to get a job done, they had souls and were alive like race horses!

        I have old pistons with holes in them and other badly scarred and used racing parts, but I could never throw them out when I think of where they have been and what they have seen, they will always have a place on some shelf or corner, or hopefully another Norton bike at some point in the future. One old racer I know holed a forged piston, had it tig welded up and put it back in the bike to race again.

Previously wrote:

Mr. Blayney, what are the chances of viewing some photographs of the 1.6" journal 88 crankshaft and the elliptical rocker adjusters?

Hi Benjamin

I have now dug out the factory 500 crank with the oversize 1.6mm (i've miked it at 1.599) journals. I knew it was in there somewhere.

Sorry but it is a bit rusty, but I will take some photo's if you are still interested and post them on here for you.

At least you now know that one has survived!

Haven't come across the elliptical rocker adjusters, they are there somewhere,  but also have a very interesting 500 barrels that have needle roller mounted "fingers" that ride on the cam instead of cam followers.

This also came from either the factory, Paul Dunstall or Roger Corbett or possibly all 3!

I'll photograph it as well.

Ginger Blayney

   Well thanks for the trouble Nigel. Of course it would be interesting to see photographs of the parts. This website and it's features do not always work for me, so I would not mind a copy of whatever photos you come up with being sent to my regular email address, sportspecial@hotmail.com. 

   It would be interesting to compare them to a late 88ss crank, and see if all they did to make the cranks for the production racers was to not machine it down so far. Norton being such a small company it seems they always did things as cheaply as possible, especially after AMC had hold of their purse-strings.

  Dunstall talked about the works-style Domiracer cranks having 1.75" rod journals, and until one pops up out of someone's stash for us to inspect I guess we will not know how those were made, machined from an existing forging or custom machined.

   Kegler said the 1.6" cranks had matching special rods, but they were all alloy just like the street Dominator and he said they did not last, from what I can gather after two years they were all used up and Kegler being the practical man did not save any old blown engine parts for us to look at 50 years later. Again keeping Norton's very limited budget in mind, I wonder what was made from various production parts and what was completely custom, we may never know.

Previously wrote:

Sonny Angel has/had one of the Norton model 88s that were built by Paul Dunstall and Francis Beart for the 1964 Daytona race. In that race Frank Scurria, Ronnie Rall and Ken Hayes rode these three bikes.

 I closely examined one of these bikes and talked at length with Frank Scurria and Kenny Hayes about the bikes. They were NOT Domiracers. First they were put together two years after the original Norton works  and race department was closed, and again they were mostly the work of Dunstall . Norton had Dunstall put them together at the request of the American Norton distributor Berliner Corporation. The engines had Dunstall needle bearing cam conversions but none of the Domiracer parts and the gearboxes were standard wide-ratio units. For the Daytona race Kenny Hayes had to install his own personal close-ratio gearset so his rear wheel would not lock up going into slow turns!

Sonny Angel has Scurria's old bike, or what is left of it. He or his offspring recently tried to get rid of it on ebay and as far as I know there were no takers as it's reserve was too high and it was rusty and missing parts. 

Dunstall also came over to Daytona in 64' with two of his own Dunstall Dominators to race at Daytona that were in addition to the three shipped to Berliner Corporation.

 

 The Daytona Domiracers for the spring 1962 Daytona race WERE genuine works builds though, they had the 1.6" rod journal crank, hollow needle bearing cam with holes in it to feed oil to the shortened and hollow bucket tappets, also close ratio gearboxes and a chassis that was all Manx style parts except for the use of a slimline roadster style frame to suit AMA rules which demanded a "road bike".

 Kenny Hayes also had rides on one of the works 1962 Daytona Domiracers and he said that it was faster and better all around for racing than the 1964 bike of Dunstall.

 

 The first Domiracers had the lowboy frame, but later ones used a standard Manx chassis, and besides the slimline ones for Daytona, a couple of Manx-framed bikes were built with tuned 650cc roadster engines also.   

Hello Dunstall story in the Classic bike this month says that when Paul Dunstall went the Bracebridge street Experimental work shop He found a number of Short stroke twins in airspace alloys and Not one nut bolt or screw would fit a production machine , there were crankshafts with 1.75 journals for short stroke 500cc twins and 600twin a 650 twin short stroke motors  and he found 600cc Nomad motor with 1.75 journals  , and two BRM DOHC  liquid cooled 4 cylinder experimental motors along with 2 single cylinder 125cc   Dohc motors and there wooden patents,  He filled two Ford Thames vans with the experimental part and three race bikes in bits and he had a tailer for the frames etc what happen to this lot we will never know , Paul said there was stuff all over the place it was heart breaking too see ,

More photos

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more...are too large. Will resize.

Does anyone know how to get on more than one pic at a time?

Tony

Ken White has a collection of Domiracer 500cc engine parts and may be worth chatting to, as he was a first-hand spectator, in the Norton pits, during the 1961 Isle of Man Races.

He has a crankshaft with 1.6" journals and says that big-end shells from an AMC engine (G45?) will fit them. He is having a set of conrods specially made as, apparently, originals are imitating 'hen's teeth'. He showed me the timing gears for his engine. They are seriously lightened by drilling and slimming. See attachment for sample.

Paul Dunstall sold alloy barrel conversion kits for the 750cc engines either to make a 750cc or 810cc size motor. These included sets of slimmer crankcase studs to take smaller nuts. These were needed because the barrel castings were wider than the standard steel barrels.

In the very early 70s I attended several Norton bike gatherings where owners had used similar alloy barrel conversions on their 650 engines. Some being stamped with 810 on the crankcases. (possibly done by the Dunstall workshop?) To fit the alloy barrels to the 650 engines  the tops of the crankcase mouths needed to be opened a little in order to allow the sleeves to fit inside. I can not recall what happened to the breather arrangment but this must have been affected.