Where are the Domiracers now???

I am interested in discovering the fate of the Norton Domiracer twins that were built by Norton in 1961 and 1962. Everyone knows their early history that can be found in common books on the subject, I was just wondering what original bikes or bits were left lying here and there.

 I suppose a good place to start would be to talk to Paul Dunstall, if anyone can furnish me with his contact information?

  Also Domiracers were sold to Hans Haldemann and Rudi Thalhammer in 1962, anyone know what they are up to these days?

  Of the three Domiracers sent over to the United States for the Daytona 200 one is still kicking around and there are a few  bits left from the other two.

  http://img839.imageshack.us/img839/9571/domiracertappets.jpg

Sonny Angel has/had one of the Norton model 88s that were built by Paul Dunstall and Francis Beart for the 1964 Daytona race. In that race Frank Scurria, Ronnie Rall and Ken Hayes rode these three bikes.

 I closely examined one of these bikes and talked at length with Frank Scurria and Kenny Hayes about the bikes. They were NOT Domiracers. First they were put together two years after the original Norton works  and race department was closed, and again they were mostly the work of Dunstall . Norton had Dunstall put them together at the request of the American Norton distributor Berliner Corporation. The engines had Dunstall needle bearing cam conversions but none of the Domiracer parts and the gearboxes were standard wide-ratio units. For the Daytona race Kenny Hayes had to install his own personal close-ratio gearset so his rear wheel would not lock up going into slow turns!

Sonny Angel has Scurria's old bike, or what is left of it. He or his offspring recently tried to get rid of it on ebay and as far as I know there were no takers as it's reserve was too high and it was rusty and missing parts. 

Dunstall also came over to Daytona in 64' with two of his own Dunstall Dominators to race at Daytona that were in addition to the three shipped to Berliner Corporation.

 The Daytona Domiracers for the spring 1962 Daytona race WERE genuine works builds though, they had the 1.6" rod journal crank, hollow needle bearing cam with holes in it to feed oil to the shortened and hollow bucket tappets, also close ratio gearboxes and a chassis that was all Manx style parts except for the use of a slimline roadster style frame to suit AMA rules which demanded a "road bike".

 Kenny Hayes also had rides on one of the works 1962 Daytona Domiracers and he said that it was faster and better all around for racing than the 1964 bike of Dunstall.

 The first Domiracers had the lowboy frame, but later ones used a standard Manx chassis, and besides the slimline ones for Daytona, a couple of Manx-framed bikes were built with tuned 650cc roadster engines also.

Here is a link to the photo of Heinz Kegler's 1962 Works "Daytona" Domiracer twin:

http://img208.imageshack.us/img208/3721/keglerdomiright.jpg

This bike had the 1.6" rod journals, the needle bearing cam and timing gears, bucket cam followers etc. but it used an iron cylinder. This is a recent photo of it, it is race-ready. Heinz tuned it and preserved it for the last 48 years!

The 1.6" crank was broke, but Heinz found that the standard 1.5" crank was just as good or better if it was used with steel Carrillo rods. I would like to see a real Domiracer turn up someday, but the Kegler bike may be the last bucket-follower works twin left intact.....

 Here is it's spare valvetrain:

 http://img213.imageshack.us/img213/7809/valvetrain1.jpg

 And a close up of one of the special bucket cam followers:

http://img94.imageshack.us/img94/1010/valvetrain2.jpg

Previously wrote:

Here is a link to the photo of Heinz Kegler's 1962 Works "Daytona" Domiracer twin:

 

http://img208.imageshack.us/img208/3721/keglerdomiright.jpg

 

This bike had the 1.6" rod journals, the needle bearing cam and timing gears, bucket cam followers etc. but it used an iron cylinder. This is a recent photo of it, it is race-ready. Heinz tuned it and preserved it for the last 48 years!

 

The 1.6" crank was broke, but Heinz found that the standard 1.5" crank was just as good or better if it was used with steel Carrillo rods. I would like to see a real Domiracer turn up someday, but the Kegler bike may be the last bucket-follower works twin left intact.....

 

 Here is it's spare valvetrain:

 

 http://img213.imageshack.us/img213/7809/valvetrain1.jpg

 

 And a close up of one of the special bucket cam followers:

 

 

http://img94.imageshack.us/img94/1010/valvetrain2.jpg

 

Benjamin,

I have a Kegler clutch in my Manxman, I expect you are familiar with his clutch modifcation. was that developed for the racer?

Regards

Steven Phelps

Previously wrote:

In the clutches that Kegler modified for customers he put an angle on the part of the clutch basket which the clutch plates would bear on under torque. This angle screwed the plates together giving the clutch a servo action so that less spring pressure was needed for the clutch to do it's job, and in turn much less pressure was needed on the clutch lever.

 The clutches that the Norton factory tested had the angle in the clutch hub though, which was much more expensive to do than modifying the clutch basket. Kegler told me that he had three of these servo clutches that the factory tested and decided against implementing in production, thinking they were too much expense!

  When the factory did not want the special clutch hubs anymore, Kegler "liberated" them and used them in his Daytona 88 racer. In Kegler's personal notebook, he writes that if the experimental DOHC 750 Norton twin would have made it to production, then it was supposed to have the servo clutch. Kegler was the one who tested the DOHC twin for Berliner. Since Berliner was the largest distributor for Nortons in the world, if he did not buy any, none would be built. Kegler tested the DOHC twin, deemed it a piece of junk as it broke down on every single test ride it was ever taken on, so Berliner told the Norton company it was a no-go. So if anyone is wondering why that neat looking DOHC Norton twin never made it into production, it was because it was tested and found not to be a good design at all.....

 

Thank you for answering that. I spoke briefly to Heinz when he was modifying my clutch, the swingarm brackets he made and some questions i had about the Laycock overdrive in my triumph. we 've lost a lot of information with his passing and a great individual to know.

The clutch is a very nice and thorough modification. he also sent me sketches and notes as to how it was accomplished

Regards,

Steven Phelps

THE BIKE

11.00 am Friday June 16^th 1961 Isle of Man senior TT rider number 8 Tom Phillis pushed off the Doug Hele experimental 500cc Norton DomiRacer.

At the completion of the 6 laps the DomiRacer came home in 3^rd place in doing so became the first twin cylinder motorcycle to lap the TT circuit at over 100 mph.

My DomiRacer is not an original when Norton moved from Birmingham to London the DomiRacer project was scrapped Doug Hele moved on to achieve more glory with the BSA Rocket 3, allowing Paul Dunstall to purchased the DomiRacer bikes and spares. The 500 never took off as a serious challenger to the Manx and G50’s and faded into history.

 In the late 60’s I decided to keep the legend alive. My DomiRacer is as close to the 1961 machine as you can get the only part I have been unable to find is the trick cylinder head. 

Previously wrote:

That is cool George. Maybe if  you get a chance you could throw up some links to photos of your bike.

 

Does your bike have the large-journal crankshaft, 2mtt magneto and bucket tappets in the engine?

 

I am corresponding now with a gentleman who claims to know the whereabouts of the original Phillis Domiracer and it's engine and is negotiating to get possession of it, we will see what happens with that!

Hi Benjamin, My engine is one of the short strokes with a one piece billet crank, with the special light weight con rods, and titanium push rods.

I will let you know more along with some photographs.

In my quest to find a complete works DomiRacer I have been on many adventures and have been shown many so called ex works machines but all turned out to be fakes. I was told a few years ago that there is a machine with a works engine and lowboy frame in a private collection in Japan it was on offer for £24000 + shipping costs the only way to confirm the providence was to go out there but there was not enough info forthcoming to justify traveling halfway round the world.

I wish your gentleman friend good hunting.

I have what i think may be an ex works 650 bottom half that may have come from the Norton factory at Bracebridge Street. It came from Reg Dreadon as a friend of mine bought it back in the late 1970's, and then passed it on to me when he did not ride British bikes any more. It has no crankcase numbers, the drive side part of the crankshaft that would have held the alternator has been machined off. The camshaft bearings are fitted with needle roller bearings and there is a screw hole, in the end of the crankcase for an oil feed direct into the camshaft to oil the needle roller bearings. This is where a breather was fitted to the Norton Atlas motor. It has been in the bottom of one of my wardrobes for years. It may or may not be an ex factory engine, but is looks a bit trick.

The camshaft is still in my 650 engine's bottom half, and the cam that came with it looks just like the one in the picture. It also has oil holes in the same place as the picture that was posted. It has a number stamped just where the breather is, or i suspect the engine shop number. It only has three holes drilled on the drive side crankcase rather than the normal six. This may have been for an engine and clutch chain cover. The breather hole at the back of the crankcase that is used on the pre Atlas engines has been blocked off. The bottom half looks like it had a different breather arrangement, and it could have used the inlet or exhaust rocker covers to breath out of. It is different and i never gave it that much thought, but i suspected it may have been a Norton ex works 650 race engine.

Previously wrote:

I would be interested to know what the numbers are on the cases, and it would also be nice to see some photos of it. I have a lot of sets of early 650 cases, including a bike with engine shop #2 in it.  I would like to compare yours to these.

   The Hele works racing twins had the cams like you are talking about, but Dunstall sold them also. Often Dunstall's were marked with the model number he used for the cam grind. I wonder if he got hold of the vendor that supplied Doug Hele and had them make them for him too. Turning out a cam like that with holes drilled in hardened lobes was pretty unique.

The Bracebridge Street 650 Nortons from 1962 and earlier had a special breather on the intake rocker cover that was quickly discontinued after those works were shut down at the end of 1962. This breather is listed for some of the other Norton twins, but I have not seen any old original 500 or 600cc bikes with the feature. Of course it was a lot of small bits that were easily lost over time.

 I have seen first hand three old 500cc racing twins here in the USA with the pressure oil feed to the cam end, I am pretty sure one had it added later. I have some old drawings that show how to machine cases for this feature. 

  My personal email is sportspecial@hotmail.com if you want to correspond and trade information on the early 650 Nortons etc..

  Hello Ben I know a very nice man is Sweden that as two Domiracers one a 500cc the other is a Manxman rebuilt for the Swedish GP  witch it won . The engine number is 18-95058 .so its only 11 machine earlier than the one I own and it as the inlet breather system and now the correct silencers to and this was down the the Very Nice man in Sweden .And He as his Own little Museum of Norton Motorcycles 15 in all two of the Manxmans and a late 62 Polychromatic blue 650ss and it as a two tone tank been blue and dove grey just like his ES2 in Red and dove grey . there very nice colours that knock your eyes out . But back too the Domiracers The Manxman is In Black and alloy tank and oil tank short race seat .GP carbs 9" 4 LSB wheel hub .its fitted in a low boy frame two but with the top tubes at the back of the tank pressed in like the slim line frame but look much like a low boy frame with modification to it . yours    AJD

Previously wrote:

The barrell studs that are left in the crankcases that i have, are of the small thin long type nut that are standard at the front of all Norton twins, that hold the barrell to the crankcase. They are all of them this size, so this engine may have had a different barrel to the standard Norton type, or even an alloy barrel. The camshaft dores not have any numbers on it, and it is just a plain camshaft. There are some numbers stamped inside the crankcases, inside the timing chest. The oil feed holes in the crankcases are also of the later larger dimensions.

Anthony, that 650 sounds as if it might be the bottom half of my 650 "domiracer" that I used late 60's early 70's before I took over the Corbett/Dunstall. It had come to me from Roger Corbett who was associated with Paul Dunstall. However it had a needle roller Dunstall cam, the breather you describe and the crank and rods were mirror polished. It ran on a Lucas/Wader racing magneto. Top end has special valves (Dunstall?) and titanium valve springs caps. 

On another interesting note for all you who have been following the Norton Domiracer storey above, I have somewhere one of the original 1.6" factory 500 cranks, that came to me from Roger Corbett, via Dunstall, presumably from the Norton factory. I always intended to use it in a 500 motor for the IOM but had no rods, and in those days that was a major stumbling block. Also I had no other parts for the engine except some elliptical rocker adjusters to allow for external tappit adjustment and presumably lighter rocker arms. I do have some original experimental Dunstall cams, but have no idea for which engine they were produced.

Ginger Blayney

Well a sort of gosh moment that some one on the forum may have actually raced that engine. There are numbers stamped inside the crankcase and inside the timing chest. The numbers stamped inside the crankcase is 11T, and this number is also stamped inside the timing side inner near the top with a 6.0 also stamped but the stampings are different. On the back of the case where the breather has been blocked off is stamped 1853, and that is it. I have had this motor for over 30 years, and never really knew what it was, so it is nice to hear from some who may have actually raced it. The crankshaft that came with it is not polished, but is of 650 configuration, but with the alternator part machined off. The camshaft as i explained earlier does not have any numbers stamped on it, but it does seem as it has been run, as it has some wear marks on it.

Mr. Blayney, what are the chances of viewing some photographs of the 1.6" journal 88 crankshaft and the elliptical rocker adjusters?

    There is a link to a photo of bucket tappets etc. in the link earlier in this thread. It is part of a page with photographs and information on the Norton sport/racing bikes from the Domiracer era that can be browsed by anyone. I think there might be a close-up looking down the throat of one of the tappets there.

    I always knew Heinz Kegler was a sharp cookie, but he must have also had a good memory. It was probably 40+ years after all the cranks that were in the works twins sent over to the usa for 1962  had been ruined that I asked him what the diameter of the rod journals originally were in those bikes, and he quickly spit out 1.6". I always wondered if that was an exact measurement or if it was maybe something like 5/8", but your memory backs him up.

     He also had said that the usa twins had a Wader racing magneto, and it was some time later that I saw a later K2FR magneto with a "Wader" tag on it. All the 50's K2Fr mags I have ever seen simply had "racing magneto" on the tag, for some reason they switched to the Wader tag at some point in the 60s, even though the stampings on the mag body still read "K2FR".

     Then there is the top development Domiracer 500, which photos show had a 2mtt style mag, and may have had 1.75" rod journals like the 650 and 750cc twins.

      It would be nice if Paul Dunstall would someday take the time to talk a bit more about this subject.

Previously wrote:

An engine shop number of 1853 would be right in the ballpark for a Norton 650 engine built in the summer of 1962. I have a bit earlier 650ss with a shop number of 13xx and have seen a guy in Australia mention an engine shop number in the low 2000s for his 650ss dispatched in September.

Dunstall does show that G50 breather mod in his tuning manual. How very nice that someone has possibly been reunited with some of their old racing parts.

 

I'm probably the guy in Australia that Mr Gradler is referring to. My 650SS has shop number 2001. Build date, according to NOC records, was 19 September 1962.  

Cheers