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Norton Tuning by Paul Dunstall
Swing Arm Brake Stop
Up to Heavy Twins
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Hi,
I've got a 1956 Featherbed Frame. It's a Model 99. I'm trial fitting things. When I got to the rear wheel and put that in place I found no slot in the Swing arm frame for the brake plate stop. The frame looks mared where the brake stop has been either sandwiched between the yokes or it's just been floating in space and banging up against the swingarm. Can anyone explain what's going on here. There's no casting on the left hand side of the swing arm for the brake stop to slide into. Everything is original. I've been told it's an early brazed frame but everything is painted so I will not be able to confirm until I remove the paint. Has anyone else run into this ? Is there a part that is bolted to the swingarm the captures the brake stop ? Any help would be appreciated. If you need a picture I can add one.
Thanks,
Lou
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Hi Paul,
I just came in from outside working on ideas for that torque arm. I'm ready to start drilling but decided to wait and see what might pan out. I had the hole located exactly 90 degrees off the cam or like you pointed out 1/2 way between. The hole is a bit arbitrary with respect to the edge of the plate. I need to clear the brake shoe edge, etc.
It would be nice to find the right plate and torque arm but that's tough to do when your in the USA. There's not very many 88's or 99's with torque arms floating around. I've been looking on Ebay for a while and I don't recall seeing any. Although this is the first time I've really been focused on them.
I've bought a few things from British Only Austria. Euro is better on the dollar than the Pound.
Thanks for letting me know how it all goes together. That alone was worth my NOC renewal.
I was wondering about that rivet too. My brake plate is obviously from a later 99 than my frame. The rivet is small on my plate which I concluded means that the spring should go on the brake pedal spindle.
I had to find a new foot brake arm. As it turns out the inside diameter on it was larger than the spindle I already had on the frame. So I found another spindle that fits the brake pedal. This spindle is grooved and uses the grease fitting to lock it to the spindle. Which now means I need to find the spindle spring. Now the brake pedal matches the brake plate. But the brake plate is going to have a torque bar. Hope I haven't bodged it up to badly. I also noticed the brake pedal lever on the plate is either up or down. Mine will have to be in the up position. I have no history on that.
I'll try and pospone my urge to make a torque arm and see if something turns up. I guess I wait a while. Many other things to do.
Lou
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Previously wrote:
Hi Paul,
I just came in from outside working on ideas for that torque arm. I'm ready to start drilling but decided to wait and see what might pan out. I had the hole located exactly 90 degrees off the cam or like you pointed out 1/2 way between. The hole is a bit arbitrary with respect to the edge of the plate. I need to clear the brake shoe edge, etc.
It would be nice to find the right plate and torque arm but that's tough to do when your in the USA. There's not very many 88's or 99's with torque arms floating around. I've been looking on Ebay for a while and I don't recall seeing any. Although this is the first time I've really been focused on them.
I've bought a few things from British Only Austria. Euro is better on the dollar than the Pound.
Thanks for letting me know how it all goes together. That alone was worth my NOC renewal.
I was wondering about that rivet too. My brake plate is obviously from a later 99 than my frame. The rivet is small on my plate which I concluded means that the spring should go on the brake pedal spindle.
I had to find a new foot brake arm. As it turns out the inside diameter on it was larger than the spindle I already had on the frame. So I found another spindle that fits the brake pedal. This spindle is grooved and uses the grease fitting to lock it to the spindle. Which now means I need to find the spindle spring. Now the brake pedal matches the brake plate. But the brake plate is going to have a torque bar. Hope I haven't bodged it up to badly. I also noticed the brake pedal lever on the plate is either up or down. Mine will have to be in the up position. I have no history on that.
I'll try and pospone my urge to make a torque arm and see if something turns up. I guess I wait a while. Many other things to do.
Lou<
Morning Lou,
Sorry, didn't realise you are t'other side of the pond.
Just as well you didn't get stuck into it yesterday, as there is a post script to my earlier message about those early brake plates.
I was wrong in my description of the hole for the torque-arm.
I remembered just as I was settling into the Z-shed.
Although it is 3/8”, it is not circular.
It has a flat and is D shaped, which is to prevent the stud, which has a corresponding flat on it, from turning and allowing the plate to rotate slightly when the brake is applied, which it shouldn't.....much. Just drilling a round hole will probably compromise the brake action a bit.
Let's face it, they were never that good or really need to be; but making them worse isn't the idea, is it!
Karsten, at British Only Austria is a straight fellow. I was having quite a dialogue with him a few years ago and he sold me a good, undamaged petrol tank, for my '54 88, which just needed stripping and a light polish before rechroming. It came up better than any of the others I have.
£80 was very cheap, considering UK traders at the time were asking £130 - £300 for tanks which really should have been thrown away. Each one of those was the last one left in the world of course.
Look, considering it is not going to be easy for you to locate the parts you need, how about I find them for you here and send them?
I won't turn them up next week; but might even have them in my lock-up. I'm almost sure there are a couple of spare torque-arms at least.
I'll have a go at working out how we can communicate directly (off-list) this evening, then we'll sort this out.
Paul
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Previously wrote:
Hi,
I've got a 1956 Featherbed Frame. It's a Model 99. I'm trial fitting things. When I got to the rear wheel and put that in place I found no slot in the Swing arm frame for the brake plate stop. The frame looks mared where the brake stop has been either sandwiched between the yokes or it's just been floating in space and banging up against the swingarm. Can anyone explain what's going on here. There's no casting on the left hand side of the swing arm for the brake stop to slide into. Everything is original. I've been told it's an early brazed frame but everything is painted so I will not be able to confirm until I remove the paint. Has anyone else run into this ? Is there a part that is bolted to the swingarm the captures the brake stop ? Any help would be appreciated. If you need a picture I can add one.
Thanks,
Lou
Hello Lou,
This type of question has people reaching for Roy Bacon and not finding the answer!
A lot of parts have been mixed up over the years; so it’s quite common to find ½ of one set up bodged onto ½ of another.
The first road going featherbeds had a cast torque-arm bolted between the brake plate and an inverted, triangular bracket, ½ way along the underside of the swinging arm.
That type of swinging arm had plain (almost crimped) fork ends, where the rear spindle locates. The chain adjusters are like large, flat washers, with a perpendicular threaded studding, so that rectangular cups bearing against the fork ends can be tightened with a nut to draw the spindle back.
When the later set up was introduced (when was it....sometime in '57?), the spindle slots (fork ends) were part of special cast lugs. The drive side casting included a horizontal machined slot, below the spindle to locate a lug on the brake plate.
The spindle is moved back for chain adjusting, by screws with locknuts, which are threaded into the lugs and bear on a turned part of the spindle head and an identical turned part of the spindle nut on the other side.
It sounds like you have the earlier swinging arm; but a later brake plate.
From the marks you mention, it also sounds like someone had one hell of a moment, when they put it together like that and stepped on the brake pedal.
Was there a brake rod, all coiled up like a spring in your box of bits??
Paul
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Hi Paul,
Your right about looking for the answer in my Roy Beacon book and the Haynes book, parts lists, and a few other's I have. What drew my attention to the issue was the photo in the Haynes book showing the cast in slotted part of the fork leg.
It looks like something noisy was going on back there because the brake stop on my plate has a nice bit of it that has been worn down and there's a notch in the fork leg on the drive side where the lug of the brake plate must have passed a few times causing the notch and probably a lot of very scary noise. Bam ! Bam ! Bam ! each time that plate spun around. Ripped that brake rod right out of the pedal and swung that over a few times as well. What a mess. Person must have had a near heart attack if not a collision.
What's so confusing is that the wheel and brake drum is a correct Model 99 or 88. According to my parts list the brake plate looks correct too. I just finished restoring a Model 7 and it had the brake stop too. Your description of the early adjusters sounds just like what's on a Model 7.
As far as my swing arm , it looks exactly like the later version but without the cast in slot. I even have the small screw type chain adjusters.
What I'm thinking is that I need this cast torque arm with the inverted bracket that I can bolt to the arm. Your the second person that has told me about this gizmo. What does this thing look like ? I have no photo's of it. Hence the search through all my documents and hours on the web. Does anyone still sell this thing. Can it be fabricated with some angle and welded up. If I saw one I might be able to improvise something. Is there a part number ? A drawing ?
Anyway , thanks for your help you've really clarified things considerably. I just didn't want to bodge it up. Close to something original would be good.
Lou
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Previously wrote:
>...............What I'm thinking is that I need this cast torque arm with the inverted bracket that I can bolt to the arm. Your the second person that has told me about this gizmo. What does this thing look like ? I have no photo's of it. Hence the search through all my documents and hours on the web. Does anyone still sell this thing. Can it be fabricated with some angle and welded up. If I saw one I might be able to improvise something. Is there a part number ? A drawing ? <
Hello Lou,
One of the many reasons why Roy Bacon’s books are of little use is that he quotes factory issued data, which he had easy access to and used a lot of brochure images.
In practise, machines which actually left the factory often had to have last minute changes made. Sometimes to solve problems which had not been anticipated, or to pacify the number-crunchers in the office.
Parts list diagrams often come from other series, so don’t use them for reference to specific models.
I had a Bacon book once. I donated it to a dentist’s waiting room.....
The Model 7’s changed to swinging arm from September ’52 and that model ended before the later type of arm.
When you say: “I just finished restoring a Model 7 and it had the brake stop too.”
Do you mean the bolt-on torque arm type or the cast-in slot type?
If we can work out how to communicate directly (‘P.M.’ I think it’s called...) I’ll send you some clear photos of both types of featherbed swinging arm, showing the different torque-stop set ups.
I think you’d be better off getting the right swinging arm. There are lots of both types sitting around. If anyone tells you they are rare, it’s because they have some and can smell a sale!
Paul
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Paul,
Brake stop as per the manuals as I interpret it is the stud or pin that protrudes from the brake plate. Usually flat on two sides. As I have found out recently from you and other sources the other method used by Norton to stop the plate from spinning was a torque rod/arm and a pivot pin. Used on the early Manx Featherbed. The photo's I have of the Model 99 and 88 conceal the torque rod /arm from view due to the muffler and exhaust pipe. I have the "V" shaped plate welded to the bottom of my swing arm. Apparently what I need now is the pivot pin that is bolted to the brake plate and a torque arm which I can bolt to the "V" plate. I'm now in the process of locating those items. Your right about all those last minute changes that Norton made before and during production years. It can get very confusing trying to figure out exactly what you have. I tend to rely on photo's and manuals and books for my information trying to avoid pestering people with my questions. If all else fails then it's time to pester. Thanks for your guidance. I think I'm moving in the right direction albeit a few bumps and gully's along the way.
Lou
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One other thing. Here's a link to what looks like a torque arm and rear brake plate.
http://www.vintage-motorcycle.com/index.php?language=en&site=4&pid=37&id=12722&gesucht=true&suche=normal&suchstring=Brake Plate
Why can't I drill a hole in my existing brake plate and mount a torque arm of my own making ? 1/4" x 1" steel bar with 3/8" holes and bolts. Question is, did Norton just drill a hole or cast a new brake plate with a reinforced hole. Bolt head could fit under brake shoe.
something to stew on.
Lou
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Previously wrote:
>One other thing. Here's a link to what looks like a torque arm and rear brake plate.
http://www.vintage-motorcycle.com/index.php?language=en&site=4&pid=37&id=12722&gesucht=true&suche=normal&suchstring=Brake Plate
Why can't I drill a hole in my existing brake plate and mount a torque arm of my own making ? 1/4" x 1" steel bar with 3/8" holes and bolts. Question is, did Norton just drill a hole or cast a new brake plate with a reinforced hole. Bolt head could fit under brake shoe.
something to stew on.
Lou<
Hello Lou,
I’ve just compared an early brake plate with a later one.
It seems that the only reinforcement is either side of the cam pivot, on both plates.
On the early plate, the torque arm is located (90 degrees around the plate, ½ way between the cam and the two pivot posts) and under the trailing shoe. There is no reinforcement there.
The torque arm is fixed with a 3/8” dia stud, with 1” (OD) washers under each nut.
One thing specific to the early plate is that the rivet (one of three) holding the dust shield to the inside of the plate (the rivet next to the brake cam), is a special one.
It has a ¼” dia head.
That head protrudes 3/8” above the outside of the plate and is where the inner eye of the lever return spring locates.
The pre-57 brake return spring coils around the brake cam lever pivot, not the brake pedal pivot.
The lug (‘torque stop’) which slides into the swinging arm end on the later type, is an extension of the leading shoe pivot post.
Those cast (or maybe drop forged) torque-arms, on the early brakes are pretty tough bits of kit. Personally I would stick with an undamaged original.
99 Euros (+ P & P) seems a bit steep for an arm, plate & shoes, which look as though they were dug out of a hedge. I always used to see these piled up at autojumbles and felt £10 was high, when I bought a set a couple of years ago.
Karsten at British Only is a decent bloke; but you must be able to find this stuff here.
Hope this is of some use.
Paul
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Hi Paul,
Thanks very much for your very neighborly offer to help me out in finding parts. I actually don't have very many left to go.
I noticed when I was scrounging around on Ebay that Norvil had a brake plate which was what I needed, but as is typical they want an arm and a leg for it. Beat up, bent up, banged up, scraped up, scratched up, gouged up, rusted up, you name it. I noticed that it appeared to have a "D" shape to the hole but wasn't sure since there was a bend in the metal at that point. You confirmed it was flat on one side. Seems like a good idea.
I'm used to the shipping charges to get it over here. Although it's getting worse and worse.
As a matter of fact I wrote my congressional representative and complained about our postal service only opting to contract the US mail to the airline industry. What ever happened to mail ships. It took the Queen Mary or the United States or the The France to get from Europe to the USA in three days. I can wait an extra few days to save 40 or 50 dollars.
I'm also seeing fewer and fewer sellers in the UK willing to go to the hassle of shipping over sea's. I don't blame them since they are making it more and more time consuming and troublesome. I just don't get it.
Anyway, here's what I need.
1. Wide line tool tray
2. Rear brake torque arm
3. rear brake plate for a torque arm , or I can make the one I have work.
4. Rear number plate
5. Chain Guard
6. Seat Frame
7. gear changer for AMC gear box
8. Engine cranking foot lever
Is the PM option available through this message board ? I didn't see it. I see that you can add attachments as long as their no more than 100 kilo. You'll need to go into a Photoshop type program to reduce photo's to the right sze. Most of my photo's are originally around 750 kilo's.
Thanks a lot !!
Lou
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Paul,
I don't see any PM option. Might be worth mentioning to the staff. Also some minor mods to the message boards such as being able to edit your own messages once posted. My email address is : jeep1943@juno.com I guess it's okay to post it.
Lou
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Tay Valley Branch Camping Weekend
