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engine number

Posted by neil_waterton at September 09. 2017

Hi all, just on ebay, a very nice atlas, advertised as a 1969 from Classic motorcycles ltd. in Northwich. Great looking refurb, but on close study of the engine number (20/121975) it seems several thousand numbers earlier than my 1968 model (20/1256**). Its advertised as 'first registered' in 1969, but one would think its a 1966 or 67 model, not registered until 69. Any thoughts you purists?  Looking to make £12K, it looks worth it at least by the fab pictures.

Comments and thoughts?

Note:tried to upload a picture, but not having it...........! somethings uploaded but not what i wanted, so please ignore the attachment.thanks

Attachments

Re: engine number

Posted by john_hall1 at September 09. 2017

Hi,

£12,000 an awful lot of money! I have seen Atlas motorcycles from £5,000 to £7.500 around! the trouble will fully restored stuff is if it's not  been restored by someone reputable or who can provide receipts you can get a "Turkey" and not realise it until you start stripping it down!

 

Learned this via an Atlas engine!

 

 

cheers

 

 

John H

Re: engine number

Posted by anthony_curzon at September 09. 2017

That number 121975 must be about April/May 1967 as 121706 is April 1967 or dispatch date. 129146 which is the first Mercury was dispatched in March 1969 but the Mercury's were dispatched from October 1968 to in to 1970.The last Atlas was 125770. Was that company that has come up on this forum as a member has paid money for a bike and not received any thing back. It may have sat in dealers show room and not sold till a later date, as this was the reason that AMC stopped stamping their engines with dates on them.

Re: engine number

Posted by robert_tuck at September 09. 2017

Looks very good at a distance,however close scrutiny reveals a pitted frame under possibly powder coat. that knocks the value down .

Re: engine number

Posted by anna jeannette Dixon at September 09. 2017

Hello Now many many times  I have told the Members of this club that  Build Date Numbers are On the Machine, If you know where to look,  Now there On the Top Lug of the head stock  the top Lug for the Head steady  there stamped in very small numbers  right on the top edge  of that Lug  you may need to remove all the paint work from the top of this Lug, Now on My Norton Manxman 650  its Stamp marked M/12/60  and this is the sort of stamp mark you see on Featherbed frames, Now  All data that the Club Holds  are the old Factory records,  which are  Dispatch dates but they give other interesting  information that you may or may not need  in each case  the Record officer  does a very good job  and do remember He is a volunteer and is Not paid for his time, and administration charges  may apply to your  enquiry  .yours   anna j      

Re: engine number

Posted by neil_waterton at September 09. 2017

Previously anna jeannette Dixon wrote:

Hello Now many many times  I have told the Members of this club that  Build Date Numbers are On the Machine, If you know where to look,  Now there On the Top Lug of the head stock  the top Lug for the Head steady  there stamped in very small numbers  right on the top edge  of that Lug  you may need to remove all the paint work from the top of this Lug, Now on My Norton Manxman 650  its Stamp marked M/12/60  and this is the sort of stamp mark you see on Featherbed frames, Now  All data that the Club Holds  are the old Factory records,  which are  Dispatch dates but they give other interesting  information that you may or may not need  in each case  the Record officer  does a very good job  and do remember He is a volunteer and is Not paid for his time, and administration charges  may apply to your  enquiry  .yours   anna j

Hi again. As I have said somewhere before, the stamped build date on the frame has no relevance to the machine's  assembly, build, sale or registration. If they built 20 frames on a certain day and date stamped them all, then put those frames in storage for ten years, all we would know is when they were welded together.

So this little bit of number stamping on the headstock i dont see as anything other than what date they cut the tubing up, shaped it and put it together. Sorry, but not relevant to the o.p.

Thanks.

Re: engine number

Posted by Dan Field at September 09. 2017

Is the date on the lug the build date of the bike or the build date of the frame? We seem to have two interpretations here!

Re: engine number

Posted by neil_waterton at September 10. 2017

Previously Dan Field wrote:

Is the date on the lug the build date of the bike or the build date of the frame? We seem to have two interpretations here!

 

Quite, Dan. I think the identity of the bike is given by the chassis number on the nearside mainframe. As I interpret it, the first number is the model, which dates it to within the years that model was made (i.e. 20 is atlas between 64 and 68)  and the long 6 figure number is numerically upwards with factory records showing what date  that number was issued, hence when the engine and the frame became a bike.The fact that engine numbers and frame numbers are the same seem to support that idea. The headstock small stamping is, I think, when the frame was actually put together. I will conceed to more knowledgable members saying differently. Always learning.

Thanks.

Re: engine number

Posted by anthony_curzon at September 10. 2017

When you ordered any parts from the factory's either AMC, Norton etc, they always asked you and I quote from one of Norton's spare parts books. "It is most essential that the engine and frame number of the machine is stated" So the engine and frame number would tell the factory the date of build and date of dispatch and in some cases the dealer and first owner it was sent to. Also Norton Matchless at Plumstead stored bikes at a warehouse that they rented at the Woolwich Arsenal. My own Matchless G15CSR street scrambler even though it has a 1967 engine and frame number was stored this way and dispatched to Elite Motors in December 1969 and therefore it has a H or 1970 registration number. It is the engine and frame number that will tell you the model and the date it was built and day of dispatch. There are also in the earlier Bracebridge Street records, the gearbox number, name of the tester, fork number, agent the bike was sent to, as well as the first owners in some cases. There was also a block added to the records on the side of the dispatched numbers if it was a new model with its specification, and different colours as well as any engine changes. This also would show the engine number when the piston oil control ring was changed to an Apex ring in the case of the 650 engines.

Re: engine number

Posted by anthony_curzon at September 10. 2017

When you ordered any parts from the factory's either AMC, Norton etc, they always asked you and I quote from one of Norton's spare parts books. "It is most essential that the engine and frame number of the machine is stated" So the engine and frame number would tell the factory the date of build and date of dispatch and in some cases the dealer and first owner it was sent to. Also Norton Matchless at Plumstead stored bikes at a warehouse that they rented at the Woolwich Arsenal. My own Matchless G15CSR street scrambler even though it has a 1967 engine and frame number was stored this way and dispatched to Elite Motors in December 1969 and therefore it has a H or 1970 registration number. It is the engine and frame number that will tell you the model and the date it was built and day of dispatch. There are also in the earlier Bracebridge Street records, the gearbox number, name of the tester, fork number, agent the bike was sent to, as well as the first owners in some cases. There was also a block added to the records on the side of the dispatched numbers if it was a new model with its specification, and different colours as well as any engine changes. This also would show the engine number when the piston oil control ring was changed to an Apex ring in the case of the 650 engines.

Re: engine number

Posted by ian_soady at September 10. 2017

That company started life as essentially a number plate reseller, although now does a lot of sales / refurbishments.

I actually sold a Velo Venom to them about 10 years ago and soon after saw it on their website for £3,000 more than I was paid (although I must say I was happy with what I got for the bike).

Their prices are always very high end and I'm not sure how much room they have for manoeuvre.

Re: engine number

Posted by michael_ingoldby at September 10. 2017

Just to add to the great frame number debate, my 1957 88 Dominator

has 7 57 stamped on the head steady but was first registered on JUNE the first 1957.

Re: engine number

Posted by ronald_proctor at September 10. 2017

Hi Neil,my Atlas engine number is less than 20 away from 121975,and it's a '67 model,if that helps.  Previously neil_waterton wrote:

Hi all, just on ebay, a very nice atlas, advertised as a 1969 from Classic motorcycles ltd. in Northwich. Great looking refurb, but on close study of the engine number (20/121975) it seems several thousand numbers earlier than my 1968 model (20/1256**). Its advertised as 'first registered' in 1969, but one would think its a 1966 or 67 model, not registered until 69. Any thoughts you purists?  Looking to make £12K, it looks worth it at least by the fab pictures.

Comments and thoughts?

Note:tried to upload a picture, but not having it...........! somethings uploaded but not what i wanted, so please ignore the attachment.thanks

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