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Norvil side stand useless

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Norvil side stand useless

Posted by George Phillips at August 04. 2017
I ordered a new side stand for my '55 ES2 from Norvil. I rang them to confirm that it would fit as it was advertised as "stand - side - ES2, 7, 77, pre-featherbed". Mine is a pre-featherbed. I was also told that it required a pin and two circlips as it was wrong to fit it with a bolt. This is despite the fact that the Norton parts list for that year show a nut and bolt as the retaining method. I ordered the stand, pin and circlips which duly arrived a few days later. It took four hours of fettling to fit the stand. I had to drill a larger hole in the lug on the frame bracket and fit shim washers to reduce the free play on the stand as the gap between the lugs was too great but what got me was that when the bike was leaned on the newly fitted stand it would have fallen over had I not been holding it. This was because the stand pointed too far forward owing to the poor design of the top end lug. So all in all a waste of £60 odd. No doubt I can do something to make it work but don't be fooled into thinking that it is a direct replacement. It's not. It's a cheap imitation. George

Re: Norvil side stand useless

Posted by les_howard at August 04. 2017

You should have used the NOC spares....catalog says they have one:

E2/1014 Side stand assembly Bolt on front engine plate type New ....12 in stock.... £102.95

Laughing...Hooray....the Smileys are back......Cool

Les

Re: Norvil side stand useless

Posted by George Phillips at August 04. 2017
That's not helpful, Les! 😃 I knew NOC had one but in a vain effort to save money thought that the Norvil sounded good at half the price. You get what you pay for!! Nevertheless, it should have been fit for purpose which it was not. George

Re: Norvil side stand useless

Posted by les_howard at August 04. 2017

I hadn't realised you were trying to save money (no problem with that I always do....try that is).... I just thought you had overlooked the fact that the NOC had them...that's all.....Frown...Perhaps the 60 quid might seem peanuts when your bike falls over and smashes things up a bit so maybe Norvil will give you some credit on it if you haggle with them and return it saying "it's not fit for purpose".... then buy the real one....but at least you've helped other potential buyers by pointing this out....see yourself as a self sacrificing hero George.....

Bottom line...I WAS trying to be helpful...Embarassed

Les

Re: Norvil side stand useless

Posted by John Shorter at August 04. 2017

What happened to the stand you were to have made, by your friendly local metalworker? 

Re: Norvil side stand useless

Posted by les_howard at August 05. 2017

I've made an entry as to pull this thread back up to the top to enable some continuity....Les

Re: Norvil side stand useless

Posted by George Phillips at August 05. 2017
Hi guys - sorry to have caused confusion amongst the ranks! I separated my Norvil saga from my stand query in an attempt to simplify the threads. It seems to have backfired on me! After my guy had offered to make one for £50 I found that Norvil did one for around the same money so, thinking the Norvil one was a direct replacement and would look better, I took that route. It didn't fit properly and took four hours of fettling then wouldn't hold the bike up. I emailed Norvil who, to be fair, answered within the hour noting that I had bought only the stand, not the stand and bracket. They also noted that they had fitted hundreds with no problem. They (or Les of Norvil) asked for some angles to be measured and sent to him and he would check the drawings on Monday. In doing more checking I found that my bracket did not match the bracket on the parts list. Mine is long and thin and fitted to the down tube/crankcase bolts whilst the pic in the parts list shows a squarish bracket fitted to the lower front of the crankcase. The parts list also shows different engine brackets to the ones fitted to my m/c. Hence my current quandary. It may be that I have the wrong bracket and the wrong plates and it's not Norvil's fault at all. But I need to know if the plates are interchangeable - hence my new thread. Whew! George

Re: Norvil side stand useless

Posted by Colin Peterson at August 05. 2017

George, it seems our recent experiences of buying from Norvil have been not entirely dissimilar ... A lot of ifs and buts involved, anyway. I hope you get it sorted!

Re: Norvil side stand useless

Posted by Neil Wyatt at August 05. 2017

Just saying pre F/bed isn't enough, although if you said 1955 that should have done the trick., George.

For me I have to emphasise 57 pre f/bed but they only made these 57 and 58 and only when I send the picture the penny drops, otherwise I would have had a lot more pre 57 bits.

Still can't buy an exhaust for it though!

 


Re: Norvil side stand useless

Posted by George Phillips at August 05. 2017
Neil, it wasn't I who said "pre-featherbed". That was the description in Norvil's listing. I rang them and queried that it would fit a '55 ES2 and was told "yes". But as I say, I may have the wrong bracket. We'll wait and see. George

Re: Norvil side stand useless

Posted by George Phillips at August 08. 2017
Update on the Norvil stand saga. I emailed Les at Norvil on Sunday evening attaching a pic of the bracket on the bike and giving the angles he had asked for. He replied on Tuesday (today) morning noting that the bracket was the wrong one for that bike. Apparently I have the bracket for a solid frame machine hence the new stand leg not sitting correctly when down. I now have to decide whether to fit a stand leg that will suit the existing bracket or change the bracket to suit the new stand leg - which I believe means stripping all the primary side down. Anyway the bottom line is that it is NOT Norvil's fault. The stand they sold me is correct. I take it all back! And they have responded quite swiftly.

Re: Norvil side stand useless

Posted by robert_wright at August 08. 2017

Hi George

Have a look at pictures of ES2 (ebay ect ) and find one with with the later large engine plates...

I cant find one mine is swinging arm 1954 and has the so called rigid frame engine plates..

 

Re: Norvil side stand useless

Posted by Barry Carson at August 08. 2017

i would wait until you get your replacement stand / bracket fitted. then pass judgment on it

Re: Norvil side stand useless

Posted by George Phillips at August 08. 2017
Fair comment Barry. Still waiting to hear from Norvil so's I can decide on the way forward.

Re: Norvil side stand useless

Posted by George Phillips at August 09. 2017
It seems that my bike is fitted with the incorrect (or its year) engine plates. This means it will accept the E2/1014 bracket but that is the wrong stand assembly for a swinging arm model. It should be E4/1016 which means I'll have to change the plates (presumably?). which in turn means all the primary side off. And this just after I get all the clutch/gear change sorted! Does anyone know if the E4/1016 bracket (the squarish shaped on that fits "under" the crankcase) will mate up with the engine plates E2/522? George

Re: Norvil side stand useless

Posted by Ian MacDougall at August 09. 2017

Hi George, not sure why you would need to disturb the primary cases in order to change the front engine plates. Maybe I'm missing something? It might be simpler just to leave the plates and stand bracket as they are, and go back to the idea of having a replacement leg made by your engineer friend.

Cheers, Ian McD

Re: Norvil side stand useless

Posted by George Phillips at August 09. 2017
I think you may be right about the plates, Ian, but I believe that the proper bracket fits under the crankcase behind the p/chain-case?George

Re: Norvil side stand useless

Posted by Barry Carson at August 09. 2017

it has to much travel forwards and not enough backwards then you think it would fit same as in the photo, slightly exaggerated.

 

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Re: Norvil side stand useless

Posted by Ian MacDougall at August 09. 2017

Here's a pic of the "under cradle" stand on my 1956 19S. The bracket can be fitted with the primary cases in situ but you may need longer studs through the cradle. I rarely use it - while it supports the bike at a reasonable angle of lean the foot is too close to the centre line and the centre of gravity seems to be outboard of the foot. This tends to lift the front wheel, especially if there is any luggage carried. Just too unstable for my liking. I have considered having a custom leg made - longer and with a bend so that the foot lands further from the bike while retaining the lean angle. The spring in the pic is not correct, there should not be any coils where it passes the pivot.

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Re: Norvil side stand useless

Posted by George Phillips at August 09. 2017
Blimey Ian! That bracket looks like neither of the ones I've been looking at! Nice pic, Barry. You'll have to let me know how you do that! That's very much how mine comes to rest except that it's forward f the crank-case. BTW Ian, when I say "under" the crankcase what I mean is that the one meant for my model sits on the side of the crank case just behind the p/chain case and it's squarish. George

Re: Norvil side stand useless

Posted by ian_goodhall at August 09. 2017

All the sidestands I've seen fitted to pre-featherbed swinging arm models bolt to the front engine plates. It does seem to be a hornets nest. Think I'll soldier on without one!

Ian G

Re: Norvil side stand useless

Posted by George Phillips at August 09. 2017
Further update. I've heard from Norvil to the effect that the bracket I have on my bike (which is like loads of ES2's that I've seen) is incorrect. It is meant for a solid frame (mod 19?). I've ordered the "correct" bracket (another £50 + ) so hope it will all go together OK. The bracket I've ordered is the equivalent of part no. E4/1016. More anon. George

Re: Norvil side stand useless

Posted by Ian MacDougall at August 09. 2017

The 2 styles of front plate mounted stands are illustrated in the '56 spares list, Plate JX rigid, Plate JY sprung. But when it gets to part numbers it doesn't seem to distinguish between the two. As you mentioned previously George the engine plates are also different for the 2 versions with noticeable changes in shape and number of holes so you might not be out of the woods yet.

The below cradle version that I have is not illustrated. I am sure that it is an original fitment as there is an identical one on a frame I picked up many years ago as a spare. Both frames are date coded for '56. I briefly wondered if mine could be a '57 part but then remembered that from '57 the cradle is tubular so the bracket would not work on that frame.

As usual more questions than answers!

Re: Norvil side stand useless

Posted by andrew_windsor at August 09. 2017

Hi, i have just breezed through the posts quickly, i have a 1953 ES2 and the side stand is bolted to the side stand bracket which goes through the front engine plate lugs . The primary case is well out the way .

Andrew

Re: Norvil side stand useless

Posted by philip_ham at August 09. 2017

George,

The attached photos show side stands for a 1955 ES2 and approx 1954 Model 7, both from single down tube models, before the change in 1956 or 57.

ES2 casting numbers: bracket 14821, leg 14786 (not easy to read this one).

Model 7 casting numbers: bracket 14787, leg 14786.

The legs are identical on both of these.

In the Spare Parts List for 1955 Models ES2, 19 Rigid Frame and 19 Spring Frame the illustration for frame and fittings (Plate JY) unhelpfully shows a Model 7 frame, which has the wrong engine plates, side stand and petrol tank mountings.  Plate JX for the solid frame has the correct picture for the sidestand and bracket, and looks identical to my ES2.

Hope this helps. Regards, Philip

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Re: Norvil side stand useless

Posted by George Phillips at August 10. 2017
Thanks guys. Philip - the pic you post shows the same bracket as I have (the upper one) which Norvil say is incorrect. According to the parts book they're right but it seems there are a lot of '55 ES2's out there with that bracket. I've checked the bracket and the two legs and can't find any casting numbers on them. It comes to something when you can't trust the manufacturer's parts list! As Ian has noted, the new bracket may not fit the engine plates so the woods are still quite dense. Hopefully Ian, in a couple of weeks or so, you can inspect it all on the Island! George

Re: Norvil side stand useless

Posted by ian_goodhall at August 10. 2017

George,

I'll probably go to the NOC reunion at Laxey but I'll have to hide my BMW Airhead round the corner!  Laughing

 

Re: Norvil side stand useless

Posted by George Phillips at August 10. 2017
I'm hoping either to get a lift or take a taxi, Ian. Just in case......... George

Re: Norvil side stand useless

Posted by philip_ham at August 10. 2017

George,

Sorry to interrupt your domestic arrangements, but here is a bit more info on ES2 sidestands!  I hope I've attached an extract from the 1955 ES2 and 1955 Model 7 parts lists and photos of the sidestand on my ES2.  It was a bit dark in the garage to get a better photo this evening, but can take it outside for a deecent picture if that helps.

It's the VMCC Autojumble at the Bath and West Showground on Saturday, so if I see any bits for sidestands I'll buy them if the price is right, then offer them for sale on NOC Classifieds.

Regards, Phil

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Re: Norvil side stand useless

Posted by George Phillips at August 10. 2017
Thanks Phil. The domestic arrangements are a diversion! That pic shows a bracket and stand exactly the same as mine. The parts list did not copy but I already have them anyway. I'm beginning to feel that the '55 parts list is not totally correct but I'll await the arrival of the bracket from Norvil and see how it goes. Many thanks for your input. George
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