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500T lighting kit

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500T lighting kit

Posted by Skip Brolund at November 10. 2017

Hi All,

working on a deal to purchase a basket case 500T. The owner mentioned having a lighting kit for the machine, as some people drove to the trials events & then drove hope. Sounds legit to me, but I was wondering if anyone has ever seen a 500T with lighting? Obviously the magneto would need to be changed out to a magdyno, and a battery fitted. Some special bracketry to mount the headlamp, as there are no fork ears.

What was the standard magneto on a 500T? I assume a BTH special competition model?

 

All the best,

 

Skip

Re: 500T lighting kit

Posted by ian_soady at November 10. 2017

I think you're right about original fitment, although I understand some used a Lucas Wader.

Given the awkwardness of removing / fitting the mag, I would see a magdyno as the obvious solution although this would not be ideal.

It wouldn't surprise me if people just fitted bobby-dodger pushbike lights in the day.

Always liked the 500T. When I was campaigning a trials Bullet in pre-65 events in the 1990s, one of the other club members had a Norton and it was a lovely machine.

Re: 500T lighting kit

Posted by john_day at November 10. 2017

problems, yes ! went out today, managed 1/2 mile, running very rich still.

pushed it back home, went out on the enfield.

Re: 500T lighting kit

Posted by Dan Field at November 10. 2017

You could fit a total loss system .... with the led bulbs you could get about 8hrs, that’s the avenue I’m looking at. Remember if you fit head lights you’ll need a working brake light.

Re: 500T lighting kit

Posted by bryon_currington at November 10. 2017

I had a new 1952 500T it came with a BTH mag I trialed it for a year or so and thought I was in heaven but being the only wheels I had and other commitments I fitted a sidecar and bought a trials James, results went down after that. I used a magdyno and fitted normal lighting etc. I don't think it would be practical to trial one with that set up   Bryon

Re: 500T lighting kit

Posted by rod_thompson at November 11. 2017

My 500T has lights, they were fitted in the early 60s when it was used for long distance trials. It had a Miller headlight from some pre-war bike fitted on Tickle brackets and a magdyno with the battery fitted in the sidecar. I have fitted all 12V LED lights and have refitted the original BTH TT mag. When I started the bike after fitting the BTH the tickover was noticeably faster, presumably from a stronger spark at low revs! I have removed the Miller headlight and fitted a cheap repro. Lucas 7" unit. I can get a full day and more headlight use out of a 7Ah sealed battery if using the sidecar or several hours from a 2Ah if solo. The 2Ah battery is just cable tied and taped to a rear mudguard stay. The headlamp is on a plug/socket so that I can remove it when riding in a trial where I expect to roll the outfit!

As far as I know a lighting kit with QD headlight was offered for the 500T but I have never seen any details of it. Does anyone have a brochure or advert listing it? I think that Lucas did make a wader magdyno so would guess at this being supplied in the kit.

Rod

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Re: 500T lighting kit

Posted by Neil Wyatt at November 11. 2017

Previously Dan Field wrote:

You could fit a total loss system .... with the led bulbs you could get about 8hrs, that’s the avenue I’m looking at. Remember if you fit head lights you’ll need a working brake light.

 

Dan, Pre 1936 OR if you can prove (Eg: a manual circuit diagram) the original vehicle didn't have a stop light then you don't have to have one. That debate was cleared up on here some time ago.

However, if retro fitting of lights might change that, I don't know?

Re: 500T lighting kit

Posted by rod_thompson at November 11. 2017

In Cyril Ayton's books "A-Z Guide to British motorcycles" and "Postwar British motorcycles" there are photographs of off and nearside, respectively, of a 500T fitted with lighting equipment. These appear to be factory photographs. The magdyno and headlamp brackets are clearly visible but I can't make out the brake light switch!

Rod

Re: 500T lighting kit

Posted by Dan Field at November 11. 2017

Previously Neil Wyatt wrote:

Previously Dan Field wrote:

You could fit a total loss system .... with the led bulbs you could get about 8hrs, that’s the avenue I’m looking at. Remember if you fit head lights you’ll need a working brake light.

 

Dan, Pre 1936 OR if you can prove (Eg: a manual circuit diagram) the original vehicle didn't have a stop light then you don't have to have one. That debate was cleared up on here some time ago.

However, if retro fitting of lights might change that, I don't know?

 

 

The mot manual is pretty clear

 

https://www.mot-testing.service.gov.uk/documents/manuals/m1s01000301.htm

 

But best to be safe in my book!

Re: 500T lighting kit

Posted by rod_thompson at November 11. 2017

That is pretty clear, thanks Dan, as no 500Ts were built before 1936!

Re: 500T lighting kit

Posted by Neil Wyatt at November 11. 2017

Hmmmmmmmmm  But is a stop lamp specified when there is not even a tail light? Ever heard of a day time MOT?

My only question was to ask if the retro fitting of lights made a difference to the rules? Other than the rule: If it is fitted it must be working.

One would take from that: No stop light switch and a single filament bulb.

My 37 spec 16H has no stop light or switch and none is specified in the manual and there never was an MOT issue. And never will be now!

Re: 500T lighting kit

Posted by Dan Field at Sunday 09:26

Hi Neil, yes I have heard of a day light mot, although being pedantic they ceased to exist a few years ago, now a vehicle either passes or fails the test with provisions in the regs for vehicles which have no lights, as my trials ES2 is in that category ( it has to have a horn).

The regs are clear that as soon as you fit lights then they have to comply with the The Road Vehicles Lighting Regulations 1989, schedule 1.  As far as I can see that stipulates that a bike manufactured after 1936 and fitted with front and rear position lights must have a stop light. I’m happy for someone to point me in the direction of the exemption but I can’t see it.

dan

Re: 500T lighting kit

Posted by ian_soady at Sunday 10:56

According to the latest MoT testers' manual,

"This inspection applies to: all machines, except those which have neither front nor rear position lamps, or has such lamps permanently disconnected , painted over or masked"

The term "this inspection" applying to stop lamps.

Therefore it's clear if you don't have lights you don't need a stop lamp.

Re: 500T lighting kit

Posted by Skip Brolund at Sunday 13:26

To Rod: Thank you so much for the book ref., I own that book as well & found the photo. I think you are correct in that being a factory photo & it does show such a kit exists.

I  really like the comp. mags, so I am leaning towards a BTH TT mag & a total loss lighting set up, with a quick disconnect headlamp. Of course it would be silly not to have a brake light if I use this on the road, so a stop/tail lamp should be fitted with a simple spring tyle brake switch clamped to the brake rod.

Perhaps a battery in the tool box, & a tool roll mounted between the front forks?

Really looking forward to this project, hope it happens!

Re: 500T lighting kit

Posted by Dan Field at Sunday 16:22

Previously ian_soady wrote:

According to the latest MoT testers' manual,

"This inspection applies to: all machines, except those which have neither front nor rear position lamps, or has such lamps permanently disconnected , painted over or masked"

The term "this inspection" applying to stop lamps.

Therefore it's clear if you don't have lights you don't need a stop lamp.

 

Ian, that’s absolutely right, no lights, means no lights! But the question was whether when you have lights fitted you also have a stop light, the answer is yes as far as I can see but am happy to be proved wrong.

Re: 500T lighting kit

Posted by ian_soady at Monday 12:21
Previously Dan Field wrote:

Previously ian_soady wrote:

According to the latest MoT testers' manual,

"This inspection applies to: all machines, except those which have neither front nor rear position lamps, or has such lamps permanently disconnected , painted over or masked"

The term "this inspection" applying to stop lamps.

Therefore it's clear if you don't have lights you don't need a stop lamp.

 

Ian, that’s absolutely right, no lights, means no lights! But the question was whether when you have lights fitted you also have a stop light, the answer is yes as far as I can see but am happy to be proved wrong.

Yes, as I read it unless the bike is exempt through age, power output etc, it needs a stop light if it has "position lights".

Re: 500T lighting kit

Posted by rod_thompson at Monday 20:41

Skip, glad that I could help. The tool box sounds a good place for the battery; hope yours comes with a tool box as they were unique to the 500T and mine is missing. You won't need to carry tools as it is a Norton SINGLE! The 500T makes a lovely road bike as it is so light. I just fit a bigger engine sprocket for road events and use it solo. Takes about half an hour to change from trials outfit to road solo. Let us know if you get the bike: I am particularly interested to know what the lighting kit consists of in the way of h/lamp brackets and the multi pin plug/socket.

Rod

Re: 500T lighting kit

Posted by paul_standeven at Monday 23:24

I would like to know what this plug / socket connector is like, and if they can be bought today

Paul

 

Previously rod_thompson wrote:

My 500T has lights....  The headlamp is on a plug/socket so that I can remove it when riding in a trial where I expect to roll the outfit!

Rod

Re: 500T lighting kit

Posted by rod_thompson at Tuesday 08:14
Paul, I just used a modern 6 pin connector from my local auto electrical supplier, who also does mail order: http://www.iem-services.co.uk/ShowDetails.asp?id=514 I guess that the original may have been an 8 pin Octal connector as these were used on contemporary electronics equipment. Rod

Re: 500T lighting kit

Posted by Skip Brolund at Tuesday 14:22

Hi all,

 

If you go to the "big" Lucas book & look at the bottom of page H9

http://www.brightsparkmagnetos.com/library/Parts%20lists/Lucas%20motor%20cycle%20parts%201936-57/H04-39%20Headlamps.pdf

the far right 838431(female end w/plug), and the far left 863193 (male end).

My guess is these are the connectors. Would love to find the part numbers referanced in a Norton spares book. Enfield also used this type on some competition bikes.

Re: 500T lighting kit

Posted by rod_thompson at Tuesday 22:36

Studying the pictures at the bottom of page H9 the two connectors mentioned in the previous post have Norton......T  handwritten next to them.

Rod

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