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Very unhappy customer

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Very unhappy customer

Posted by Colin Peterson at August 01. 2017

Am I allowed to name names? If not, I apologise and leave it to the judgement of our excellent elves.

Back in April I bought a pair of unbalanced downpipes from Norvil (063375A EXHAUST PIPES - UPSWEPT TYPE - UNBALANCED - PAIR - 1 3/8") for my MKIIA 850. At first, I was waiting for a pair of silencers to return from rechroming before fitting the downpipes. Then I spent most of July concentrating on a transmission rebuild. At last, yesterday seemed a good day to fit the downpipes, and the silencers that had now arrived. The downpipes didn't fit. The flange that enters the threaded exhaust port was too big, about 2mm bigger in diameter than the flange on the pipes I was intending to replace, and would not enter the head.

I wondered, are these downpipes faulty, or did I order the wrong ones? Perhaps at this point someone can answer that question for me. Anyway, I phoned Norvil to inquire, and was told repeatedly that my only option was to call Les Emery between 4 and 5 pm. It was like talking to an android, or an employee of Rupert Murdoch – I've had that experience too.

These pipes cost me £91.42 plus VAT and P&P. I can't use them, except by maybe taking an angle grinder to the flanges, which would be very hit-and-miss. Whether parts that I've already bought from Norvil are faulty or merely wrong, and therefore my own fault, doesn't seem to me to be the sort of technical question for which I ought to queue up to talk to Les. The person I spoke to admitted that I might not find it easy to talk to Les, depending on how busy he is. Again, someone here might be able to advise me on that. I said that it didn't seem to be a good way of doing business, in terms of customer satisfaction and goodwill. I also made sure that the person I spoke to had my phone number, and asked would somebody please call me back in a day or two. Again I was told that my only option was to try to talk to Les.

As things stand, like The Times, I hope very much that I never find myself wanting to order anything from Norvil ever again. I wonder, is this a common experience? Has anyone had a similarly frustrating experience, either with these particular downpipes or with Norvil more generally? Did I order the wrong size downpipes? TIA

Re: Very unhappy customer

Posted by Charles Bovington at August 01. 2017

Previously Colin Peterson wrote:

Am I allowed to name names? If not, I apologise and leave it to the judgement of our excellent elves.

Back in April I bought a pair of unbalanced downpipes from Norvil (063375A EXHAUST PIPES - UPSWEPT TYPE - UNBALANCED - PAIR - 1 3/8") for my MKIIA 850. At first, I was waiting for a pair of silencers to return from rechroming before fitting the downpipes. Then I spent most of July concentrating on a transmission rebuild. At last, yesterday seemed a good day to fit the downpipes, and the silencers that had now arrived. The downpipes didn't fit. The flange that enters the threaded exhaust port was too big, about 2mm bigger in diameter than the flange on the pipes I was intending to replace, and would not enter the head.

I wondered, are these downpipes faulty, or did I order the wrong ones? Perhaps at this point someone can answer that question for me. Anyway, I phoned Norvil to inquire, and was told repeatedly that my only option was to call Les Emery between 4 and 5 pm. It was like talking to an android, or an employee of Rupert Murdoch – I've had that experience too.

These pipes cost me £91.42 plus VAT and P&P. I can't use them, except by maybe taking an angle grinder to the flanges, which would be very hit-and-miss. Whether parts that I've already bought from Norvil are faulty or merely wrong, and therefore my own fault, doesn't seem to me to be the sort of technical question for which I ought to queue up to talk to Les. The person I spoke to admitted that I might not find it easy to talk to Les, depending on how busy he is. Again, someone here might be able to advise me on that. I said that it didn't seem to be a good way of doing business, in terms of customer satisfaction and goodwill. I also made sure that the person I spoke to had my phone number, and asked would somebody please call me back in a day or two. Again I was told that my only option was to try to talk to Les.

As things stand, like The Times, I hope very much that I never find myself wanting to order anything from Norvil ever again. I wonder, is this a common experience? Has anyone had a similarly frustrating experience, either with these particular downpipes or with Norvil more generally? Did I order the wrong size downpipes? TIA


email Norvil, give the above details and ask for a prompt reply.

I am sure that Les will reply and would hope that a satisfactory conclusion will result,but if the reply is not forthcoming or unsatisfactory, then invoke the sale of goods act on the grounds that the parts are not of merchantable quality and not fit for purpose. Final resort is the small claims court.

 

Re: Very unhappy customer

Posted by Colin Peterson at August 01. 2017

Previously Charles Bovington wrote:

email Norvil, give the above details and ask for a prompt reply.

I am sure that Les will reply and would hope that a satisfactory conclusion will result,but if the reply is not forthcoming or unsatisfactory, then invoke the sale of goods act on the grounds that the parts are not of merchantable quality and not fit for purpose. Final resort is the small claims court.

 

Thanks for the tip Charles – I'm going to cool off by spending the day tinkering with my carbs, then later or tomorrow I'll probably do as you suggest. What really got me is that I know from long experience that this is the sort of problem that a reputable trader would normally be happy to look into. Why should Norvil be any different? Cheers.

Re: Very unhappy customer

Posted by john_holmes at August 01. 2017

The RGM supplied unbalanced set fitted to my MK2A measures 46.35mm on the flange, the ID if the thread in the head is 47.12mm.

Re: Very unhappy customer

Posted by ian_emerson at August 01. 2017

Colin, if it's any consolation I've recently had a similar 'problem' with replacement downpipes. In my case I think the pipes were fine and my bike probably had replacement threads in the exhaust port. However, I did use a dremel type tool  to slowly and gently grind down the circumference of the flange. It worked perfectly.

Re: Very unhappy customer

Posted by Colin Peterson at August 01. 2017

Previously john_holmes wrote:

The RGM supplied unbalanced set fitted to my MK2A measures 46.35mm on the flange, the ID if the thread in the head is 47.12mm.

Exactly the sort of info I need and I hadn't even asked for it, thank you John! The flange on my Norvil pipes measures 48.26mm, almost exactly the same difference between my Norvil pipes and your RGMs as I'd guesstimated between my Norvils and the ones on the bike! And clearly way too big for the ID of the thread in the head. Well, I must count my blessings – the bike's running very nicely, there's great help to be had from this forum, and I can go for a ride in a bit. As for Norvil ... We shall see. Cheers.

Re: Very unhappy customer

Posted by ian_emerson at August 01. 2017

I probably should clarify that the pipes did not come from the supplier you mention.

Re: Very unhappy customer

Posted by Colin Peterson at August 01. 2017

Previously ian_emerson wrote:

Colin, if it's any consolation I've recently had a similar 'problem' with replacement downpipes. In my case I think the pipes were fine and my bike probably had replacement threads in the exhaust port. However, I did use a dremel type tool  to slowly and gently grind down the circumference of the flange. It worked perfectly.

Thanks Ian, I also note your mention that your supplier was different. I do have replacement threads in my exhaust ports, but they take the original nut (in my case 06.3988 I think, but I don't know how it compares re 'long' or 'short'), so the ports' ID must be as original. With your experience in mind, I'm now thinking that it shouldn't be beyond my ability to remove 2mm from the diameter of the flange, and, PITA though that might be, it would probably be less stressful than getting into a fight with Norvil. Seeing as I do actually have new pipes, I just need to make them fit. If I do work on the pipes myself, I shall be left with the view that I need to avoid Norvil like the effing plague! But they ought to be told ... I do not appreciate being made to feel like a serf who has to go begging cap in hand for leave to speak to his master – f**k that! Hey ho. Thanks again.

Re: Very unhappy customer

Posted by ian_emerson at August 01. 2017

At the risk of looking foolish in public I also should flag up that when I fitted my nice new pipes and lined everything up, I tightened them again once everything was warmed up and of course the torque must have moved the pipes in the port slightly.  I now have a lovely scrape down the chrome where the kick start caught the pipe. You probably have more sense to check than me but if not, hopefully this will prompt you to check. Hope it helps.

Re: Very unhappy customer

Posted by Colin Peterson at August 01. 2017

Previously ian_emerson wrote:

At the risk of looking foolish in public I also should flag up that when I fitted my nice new pipes and lined everything up, I tightened them again once everything was warmed up and of course the torque must have moved the pipes in the port slightly.  I now have a lovely scrape down the chrome where the kick start caught the pipe. You probably have more sense to check than me but if not, hopefully this will prompt you to check. Hope it helps.

Ah yes, no need to feel foolish, I think most of us will make that sort of mistake from time to time! I remember something like that happening on a bike of mine once, I just don't remember which one, so guilty as charged over here! While I'm pondering what to do with my pipes (I think I know) I'm leaving off the lockwire and checking for tightness after each ride, it only takes a mo. Cheers!

Re: Very unhappy customer

Posted by Barry Carson at August 01. 2017

i rang norvil some time ago asking a question about my triton slider and which one would sort my front wheel centralizing problem the chap on the phone mumbled a bit and after a while came back with i don't know why people like you have to mess then a pause then i was told the info i needed. went to collect my goods to be greeted with a short sharp other end of the counter you will get served there. stood there ten minutes then eventually got served that was my first and last visit.

Re: Very unhappy customer

Posted by ian_cordes at August 01. 2017

Colin. If you don't inform Norvil of the problem, and get the grinder out instead, not only will you do yourself a dis-service by grinding through the nice shiny chrome, which will no doubt peel off from that area outwards over time, but Norvil will continue to send out these faulty pipes to others, no doubt oblivious to the fact that their supplier has messed up.

Re: Very unhappy customer

Posted by Colin Peterson at August 01. 2017

Previously Barry Carson wrote:

i rang norvil some time ago asking a question about my triton slider and which one would sort my front wheel centralizing problem the chap on the phone mumbled a bit and after a while came back with i don't know why people like you have to mess then a pause then i was told the info i needed. went to collect my goods to be greeted with a short sharp other end of the counter you will get served there. stood there ten minutes then eventually got served that was my first and last visit.

Hmm, why doesn't that surprise me? Sounds like you spoke to the same bloke I did. After telling me I needed to speak to Les, he left me hanging for a while, and then said I'd faded out, as though he was surprised I was still there. About as helpful as a poke in the eye.

Re: Very unhappy customer

Posted by Colin Peterson at August 01. 2017

Previously ian_cordes wrote:

Colin. If you don't inform Norvil of the problem, and get the grinder out instead, not only will you do yourself a dis-service by grinding through the nice shiny chrome, which will no doubt peel off from that area outwards over time, but Norvil will continue to send out these faulty pipes to others, no doubt oblivious to the fact that their supplier has messed up.

Yes Ian, you're right, Norvil need to be told. And the chrome might well peel. I only hesitate because I have very low tolerance for this kind of stress these days. But I have an email half-written, maybe I'll finish it tomorrow. Thanks.

Re: Very unhappy customer

Posted by anna jeannette Dixon at August 01. 2017

hello this has happened to me  right-hand side pipe went under the bike  and was look on where near fitting my silencers On my 650 so I just told them they did not fit and I am sending them back  and I did get my money back  to it's not only exhaust pipes at does not fit  its other parts too  I now shop else were  yours   anna j

Re: Very unhappy customer

Posted by paul_webb at August 01. 2017

Norvil!!!!! The last supplier I would ever deal with if I can't find an alternative for my requirements.

Re: Very unhappy customer

Posted by Andy MacKenzie at August 01. 2017

Colin,

To add more to the 'return them' case, if you modify them and then when you fit them find alignment on the bike is poor (not uncommon with effectively pattern pipes), you will have invalidated any warranty and your right to return.

You clearly have pipes that are not fit for purpose, so it should be an automatic, no quibble (but maybe patronising) refund or replacement.  I would certainly insist on any return postage cost being refunded too, if not offered - why should you be out of pocket because of faulty goods?

Regards,

Andy

Re: Very unhappy customer

Posted by Colin Peterson at August 01. 2017

Previously anna jeannette Dixon wrote:

hello this has happened to me  right-hand side pipe went under the bike  and was look on where near fitting my silencers On my 650 so I just told them they did not fit and I am sending them back  and I did get my money back  to it's not only exhaust pipes at does not fit  its other parts too  I now shop else were  yours   anna j

Thanks anna j, at least you got your money back, that's something – and to know I'm not alone in this, I'm grateful! My estimation of Norvil has taken a nosedive lately. Apart from the present debacle, and evident customer service issues, I recently ordered a new set of front isolastic rubbers from them, purely because the bike wears Norvil's adjustable isos from years ago. I ordered by phone to be sure I got the right part. When it arrived I checked and saw first that by part number it's a straight swap with the MKIII front iso rubbers, and second that it looked very cheap and nasty compared to the Only Genuine Source's item – or at least their photo of it. The Norvil part's in now, but if I ever need another one I won't be planning on getting it from them. Cheers.

Re: Very unhappy customer

Posted by Dan Field at August 01. 2017

Please don't try and invoke the Sale of Goods act, it's been repealed! The Act you want is the Customer Rights Act 2015. http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2015/15/contents/enacted

If you can't sort it with Norvil then a small claims court action is not expensive and may get their attention, hopefully it won't be required.

 

Dan

Re: Very unhappy customer

Posted by Colin Peterson at August 01. 2017

Thanks Paul, Andy and Dan – so it looks like I'm not the only one avoiding Norvil from here on in, and I shall send an email tomorrow. Of course, I shall post here about however this gets (or doesn't get) resolved. I really appreciate the posts on this subject, thanks all.

Re: Very unhappy customer

Posted by John Sunderland at August 01. 2017

A chap who lives local to me and has been involved with Nortons, literally all his life as his dad had a local dealership in the 1950's, warned me off Norvil some months ago. I've thought about using Norvil in the past but have never purchased anything. I eamailed once with a query and waited well over a week for a reply, then  when it eventually arrived I'd have been better off asking our cocker spaniel for all the good it was. After reading the above comments regarding Norvil, I think I'll stick with RGM (local to me), Andover and Feked. Good service and advice from all.

John

Re: Very unhappy customer

Posted by Colin Peterson at August 01. 2017

Previously John Sunderland wrote:

A chap who lives local to me and has been involved with Nortons, literally all his life as his dad had a local dealership in the 1950's, warned me off Norvil some months ago. I've thought about using Norvil in the past but have never purchased anything. I eamailed once with a query and waited well over a week for a reply, then  when it eventually arrived I'd have been better off asking our cocker spaniel for all the good it was. After reading the above comments regarding Norvil, I think I'll stick with RGM (local to me), Andover and Feked. Good service and advice from all.

John

Interesting, I'd never heard of Feked! I shall try to remember the name. I was just reminiscing over how pleasant it used to be, many years ago, phoning Mick and Angela Hemmings for parts and advice. They were unfailingly charming, and invoices that arrived with parts always had some merry personal message written on them. Happy days, a shame they no longer have a shop, although I discovered recently that they remain perfectly charming! Cheers.

Re: Very unhappy customer

Posted by john_evans1 at August 01. 2017

faked...I bought a few bits last year. unfortunately I ordered the wrong A/r springs for my distributor. only a few pence.

I e mailed to explain my error and asked if they had the correct ones.

 

No reply was ever received.

 

I was not complaining nor did I want to send the incorrect parts back.

Needless to say I have ordered nothing further.

Re: Very unhappy customer

Posted by Barry Carson at August 01. 2017

heres the feked web site

https://www.feked.com/

Barry


Re: Very unhappy customer

Posted by Colin Peterson at August 02. 2017

Duly noted, thanks both.

Re: Very unhappy customer

Posted by Gordon Johnston at August 02. 2017

Are Norvil any worse than, say, Armours in this respect? Or even RK Leighton the seat maker? With Armours and Leighton I have had poor, not to say surly service when I have complained of ill-fitting parts.

I'm not making excuses for Norvil but at least they do stock a huge range of the more obscure parts for Nortons so they still get my trade from time to time. As indeed does Armours.

If you want real customer service, buy an Enfield and use Hitchcock's.

Re: Very unhappy customer

Posted by les_howard at August 02. 2017

I'm pretty sure that most exhaust pipe and silencers sold in this country by other retailers are manufactured by Armours...

As far as the oversized flanges...if this is all that is wrong you are lucky but then again untill fitted you won't know.

I would decide if the shape look likely to be OK then reduce the diameter of the flange....but NOT with an angle grinder!!

You could either file this down quite quickly (wrap tape around the pipe to protect the chrome should you wander off with the file).

OR...Simply get someone to help you and use a bench grinder. Hold the exhaust in a rigidly supported fist near the grinding wheel and have someone turn and rotate the exhaust pipe so the pipe turns smoothly slipping round in the hand at a constant distant as you move the flange inwards to contact the grinding wheel. Doing it this way will accurately remove an even amount all the way round in about a minute for each one...Dead easy....much easier than having the hassle of sending the pipes back by post... and then buying other pipes SIMILARLY not likely to fit perfectly as you might have hoped.....Wink....Les

Re: Very unhappy customer

Posted by Colin Peterson at August 02. 2017

Previously les_howard wrote:

I'm pretty sure that most exhaust pipe and silencers sold in this country by other retailers are manufactured by Armours...

As far as the oversized flanges...if this is all that is wrong you are lucky but then again untill fitted you won't know.

I would decide if the shape look likely to be OK then reduce the diameter of the flange....but NOT with an angle grinder!!

You could either file this down quite quickly (wrap tape around the pipe to protect the chrome should you wander off with the file).

OR...Simply get someone to help you and use a bench grinder. Hold the exhaust in a rigidly supported fist near the grinding wheel and have someone turn and rotate the exhaust pipe so the pipe turns smoothly slipping round in the hand at a constant distant as you move the flange inwards to contact the grinding wheel. Doing it this way will accurately remove an even amount all the way round in about a minute for each one...Dead easy....much easier than having the hassle of sending the pipes back by post... and then buying other pipes SIMILARLY not likely to fit perfectly as you might have hoped.....Wink....Les

I notice RGM sell pipes by Wassell ... I'm afraid the bench-grinder method would be the stuff of dreams for me, but thanks for laying it out. I could do the file method. But then I'd worry about the chrome peeling. And Norvil do need to be told. I'm planning on sending them an email about it today. Cheers.

Re: Very unhappy customer

Posted by Colin Peterson at August 02. 2017

Previously Gordon Johnston wrote:

Are Norvil any worse than, say, Armours in this respect? Or even RK Leighton the seat maker? With Armours and Leighton I have had poor, not to say surly service when I have complained of ill-fitting parts.

I'm not making excuses for Norvil but at least they do stock a huge range of the more obscure parts for Nortons so they still get my trade from time to time. As indeed does Armours.

If you want real customer service, buy an Enfield and use Hitchcock's.

Interesting about Armours, given that they've been making pipes since who knows when, and I've certainly bought pipes from them before, upwards of 30 years ago. Customer service is out there, it just seems to be more hit-and-miss. Cheers.

Re: Very unhappy customer

Posted by john_holmes at August 02. 2017

Armours out source their pipe bending and customer service is non existent as I found to my cost, I hope they are not the main UK supplier.

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